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Designman20 10-08-2007 11:08 AM

Old House - no junction box - HELP!
I have a 100yr old house and in our Entry we have 2 sconces that i removed and want to replace, but I found out that there are no Junction Boxes, in both location there are only the wires that come out of the wall through a small hole. i know that per code, you need a junction box, but i don't want to install them...... is there any way i can mount a new sconce to the plaster wall? do they have mounting brackets for this type of situation? the lights worked before without junction boxes, i really don't want to spend more money....what are your thoughts?

Thanks in advanced

ChristopherSprks 10-08-2007 11:24 AM

Old House - no junction box - HELP!
Hey Newbie..... ever get those lights back on the wall?

Designman20 10-08-2007 11:26 AM

I have not. That's why i posted, I'm looking for suggestions.

Thanks in advanced.

ChristopherSprks 10-08-2007 11:30 AM

well it's been awhile since that post thats why I asked first....

Not to look like a smart ass but it is your house.... you don't want it don't use it.

I am an electrician in the trade for 23yrs and I have worked in many of historical homes.
Are the fixtures wide enough for hide the boxes?
Why exactly don't you want to use the boxes?

ChristopherSprks 10-08-2007 11:33 AM


Originally Posted by ChristopherSprks (Post 66915)
well it's been awhile since that post

gezzz... I'm sorry, I thought your join date was the posting date.... so sorry I was multitasking at the time... what a :jester:I am

Designman20 10-08-2007 11:42 AM

well, i figured since the last 100 years there has been no problem why install junction boxes now? I'm repainting the hallway and in removing the old wall sconces i found that there were NO junction boxes installed and the lights worked just fine with no junction boxes. is there a way i can secure the new wall sconces to the plaster? and attachments in the industry?


ChristopherSprks 10-08-2007 12:05 PM


Originally Posted by ChristopherSprks (Post 66915)
Are the fixtures wide enough for hide the boxes?

A 100yr old house thats amazing congrats for taking on such a "labor of love".

Like I said, it's your house, but if it were me and you hired me to reinstalled the fixtures I would be forced to install the boxes. If the fixture were not wide enough to cover the boxes I would modify the fixtures maybe with a threaded tube drilled through the fixture. 1st cut in the box, attach a fixture bracket w/ treaded tube then a blank plate with hole drilled through for tube and a hole for the wires, use one of those little red bushings you find at the end of the BX cable (we call then red heads or anti-shorts) then paint the blank plate the same as the wall then the fixture goes on then a decorative cap for the tube.

J. V. 10-08-2007 12:44 PM

I doubt replacing fixtures could be called a renovation. If it were me I would not use boxes. Just make sure the connections will be housed in the fixture body. "Don't push the wire nuts into the wall". Some fixtures have a plate on the back with a small hole in the middle. Bring the house wires into the hole.
I know this will be dismissed as nonsense, but why install the boxes if you dont need them.
If you are doing any renovations involving permits, I would install the boxes.

If you decide to install the boxes just use round or octagonal type. You must have a way to secure them to the stud or the wall behind them. Then install your fixture ring and off you go.

As a licenced contractor, I would not bother to install them in my home, but I would in yours.

Designman20 10-08-2007 01:06 PM

Hey JV

Let me understand you correctly. i get the part in which you want me to take the wires through the hole in the plate in which the fixture attaches to but how do i attach the plate to the plaste wall? it seems pretty simple. like i said all i have right now are two wires coming through a hole in the wall

Thanks in advanced!

sluggermike 10-08-2007 02:00 PM

Unless your wiring has been up dated, you have the tube and nob type wiring and it is most likely very brittle. I started to do some wiring for my Uncle who had a very old house with the tube and nob system. I told him that I would have to rewire the house because I didn't think it was safe. Fortunately for me he sold the house and even though it was considered an historical site the new owner tore it down. The new owner was fined, but he had a lot of money and didn't care--too bad.

ChristopherSprks 10-08-2007 02:28 PM


Originally Posted by sluggermike (Post 66971)
the new owner tore it down.

what a shame....:censored:

Designman20 10-08-2007 02:48 PM

is there a mounting plate i can buy for my situation?
i realize i should run the wires through the plate and tuck them into the back of the fisture so they are NOT in the wall since there is no junction box


ChristopherSprks 10-08-2007 03:15 PM

As Per The 2005 NEC

300.15 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, or Fittings Where Required
300.15(J) Luminaires (Fixtures) A box or conduit body shall not be required where a luminaire (fixture) is used as a raceway as permitted in 410.31 and 410.32.

410.31 Luminaires (Fixtures) as Raceways
Luminaires (fixtures) shall not be used as a raceway for circuit conductors unless listed and marked for use as a raceway.
According to the UL Luminaire Marking Guide, luminaires listed for use as raceways are marked ``Suitable for Use as a Raceway'' and also ``Maximum of _____C permitted in raceway.'' Without these markings, a row of luminaires connected end to end cannot be used as a raceway for circuit conductors other than the 2-wire or multiwire circuit supplying the luminaires. Luminaires identified for use as a raceway have been evaluated for the heat contribution caused by additional current-carrying conductors.

410.32 Wiring Supplying Luminaires (Fixtures) Connected Together
Luminaires (fixtures) designed for end-to-end connection to form a continuous assembly, or luminaires (fixtures) connected together by recognized wiring methods, shall be permitted to contain the conductors of a 2-wire branch circuit, or one multiwire branch circuit, supplying the connected luminaires (fixtures) and need not be listed as a raceway. One additional 2-wire branch circuit separately supplying one or more of the connected luminaires (fixtures) shall also be permitted.
The provisions of 410.32 facilitate convenient switching and supply circuit arrangements for a physically continuous row of luminaires or a row that is made continuous via the wiring method. A single 2-wire or a single multiwire branch circuit supplying the luminaires is permitted to be run through the continuous row(s), and the luminaires are not required to be listed for use as a raceway. An additional 2-wire branch circuit is permitted to be run through these luminaires. This circuit may supply only luminaires in the connected row(s) and is commonly employed to switch night lighting as an energy conservation method.

What it says here is, that if the fixture has a compartment large enough to contain a splice a "box" is not required.
Does the fixture have a splice box on it? I doubt it.

ChristopherSprks 10-08-2007 03:17 PM

Good Luck dude.... :thumbsup:

Designman20 10-08-2007 03:18 PM

i have not purchased the fixtures yet. i wanted to know if there are mounting plates they sell for my current siutation.

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