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Old 03-17-2009, 12:05 PM   #1
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No power in outlet


Another Update:

We changed the toaster outlet messing up and all is fine with it and the other outlets that were going out with it. However, we still have no power in the original outlet problem, ( outlet under the sink for DW/Disp.) Dishwash outlet has it's own breaker switch in the breaker box, different from the plug messing up. Thanks




UPDATE:

Okay, we changed the outlet and still no power. However, before changed it we noticed that the plug for the toaster on the counter was acting up, and when I messed with the toaster plug, power went out along that kitchen wall and into the dining room, it come back on, but goes off when messed with. My husband checked that plug and there are more extra black and white wires in it than the other plugs? Coulld this be causing the problem with DW/disp plug?

Thanks


Hi,

The outlet under my sink which supplies power to the dishwash and disposal is out. I checked the circuit breaker and it was fine, but I switched it off and on again to be sure. Everthing else in the kitchen works fine. I tried plugging other small appliances in the outlet, and nothing works in it. Will replacing the outlet fix the problem? I plan on doing that next.

Thanks


Last edited by sherben2; 03-18-2009 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:24 PM   #2
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No power in outlet


Yes, replacing your outlet may solve your problem,but, need to make sure breaker is off & you check it with a electrical tester to make sure. You can get these at lowe's or home depot. just 2 leads on in each slot , light will light up if there's power, no light, no power. Your outlet could have some damage to it some how. Also check to make sure both the hot & neutral wires going to the outlet are tight & didn't come off someway or are broken.
Still not sure , it would be best to get a electrician to look at it.

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Old 03-17-2009, 12:38 PM   #3
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No power in outlet


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Originally Posted by sherben2 View Post
Hi,

The outlet under my sink which supplies power to the dishwash and disposal is out. I checked the circuit breaker and it was fine, but I switched it off and on again to be sure. Everthing else in the kitchen works fine. I tried plugging other small appliances in the outlet, and nothing works in it. Will replacing the outlet fix the problem? I plan on doing that next.

Thanks
Check the GFCI receptacles in your kitchen to make sure none are tripped. Typically the DW and DSP are not GFCI protected, but you never know how someone may have wired things.
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:51 PM   #4
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No power in outlet


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Originally Posted by Busy Jim B. View Post
Yes, replacing your outlet may solve your problem,but, need to make sure breaker is off & you check it with a electrical tester to make sure. You can get these at lowe's or home depot. just 2 leads on in each slot , light will light up if there's power, no light, no power. Your outlet could have some damage to it some how. Also check to make sure both the hot & neutral wires going to the outlet are tight & didn't come off someway or are broken.
Still not sure , it would be best to get a electrician to look at it.
Thanks, I will make sure the breaker is off and to check the hot and neutral wires to the outlet. My husband just came home and dug out the tester, (i didn't know we had) and there is no power to the outlet according to the tester. I appreciate your help.
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Old 03-17-2009, 12:53 PM   #5
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No power in outlet


Thanks, I doubled checked and there are no GFCI receptacles in the kitchen. All help is very appreciated.
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Old 03-17-2009, 01:39 PM   #6
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No power in outlet


It seems from your post that you are supplying both the dishwasher and disposal from a single outlet, which I assume has two three prong jacks. You should check the amperage rating of the dishwasher and disposal, between them they could easily exceed 15 amps, which is the normal rating for an outlet. You can buy heavy duty outlets good for 20 amps (typicall sold as contractor grade), however before you install one make sure the circuit is wired for 20 amps.

This would typically require #12 gage wire, whereas you might only have #14 wire in the circuit. Also, you should see what else is on this circuit, since outlets are often wired in a run, there could be other outlets on the circuit, or conceivably lights. It is a code violation, not to mention a fire hazard, to overload a circuit to draw more than the rated capacity of the wire feeding the circuit.

You could run a dedicated circuit to the dishwasher and disposal rated for 20 amps, which would solve the problem. Of course, fishing the new wire and installing a new outlet might be more work than you are looking for.
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Old 03-17-2009, 02:30 PM   #7
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No power in outlet


Don't use a neon tester to test voltage; any incand. lamp in a socket with pigtail leads is better.
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Old 03-18-2009, 12:29 PM   #8
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No power in outlet


Okay, we changed the outlet and still no power. However, before changed it we noticed that the plug for the toaster on the counter was acting up, and when I messed with the toaster plug, power went out along that kitchen wall and into the dining room. My husband checked that plug and there are more extra black and white wires in it than the other plugs? Coulld this be causing the problem with DW/disp plug?

Thanks
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Old 03-18-2009, 12:37 PM   #9
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No power in outlet


I am guessing that the outlet is wired as a daisychain with other outlets, in other words it gets its power from the next outlet "upstream". This is very common practice, to chain together several outlets, and possibly even tap lights off the same circuit. When you put the new outlet in, did you check to see if there was voltage to the outlet (see previous post)? Almost certainly, there was no power to the outlet, meaning there is a fault in the circuit upstream.

This could either be a disconnected hot wire at an upstream outlet feeding the one you replaced, or possibly a disconnected neutral. You can check voltage at the replaced outlet with a volt meter, if you do not have one, or do not know how to use it, you need to get help form someone who does know how to check voltage.

You are likely to find that one of the upstream outlets has a disconnected wired, which could be a wire that came loose from a wirenut connection, or form one of the screw terminals on the outlet itself. However, as noted in a previous post, you probably have too many outlets chained together, since you have a dishwasher and a disposal unit chained together with other kitchen outlets, possibly a toaster, which between them almost certainly overloads the circuit. Time to put in a new, dedicated circuit for the dishwasher/disposal unit.
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Old 03-18-2009, 04:12 PM   #10
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No power in outlet


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Originally Posted by Daniel Holzman View Post
which between them almost certainly overloads the circuit.
No; breaker holds.
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Old 03-18-2009, 05:18 PM   #11
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No power in outlet


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Originally Posted by Yoyizit View Post
No; breaker holds.

Yes, the breaker "holds" as does the "gfci" (?) in the garage. No where is there an indicator of a problem, besides the fact that there is no power in the outlet. We have reset and tested the gfci and no difference.

We have:

-changed the outlet (no power)
-checked it with a voltage tester (no power)
-switched off and on the breaker (just in case)
-checked the gfci (?) in the garage and reset it (no change)
-tested the outlet with another appliance (no power)
-plugged the D/W and Disp. in another outlet via surge
protector extension cord and they work

Thanks
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Old 03-18-2009, 05:36 PM   #12
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No power in outlet


Any recent work done?
New cabinets, new shelf?
Anything that could have penetrated a wire in the wall?

You may have a loose connection
Best bet is to shut power off to all outlets in the area
Verify they do not have power
Then check the connections on all the outlets
Make sure they are not using the "back stabbed" connections
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Old 03-18-2009, 05:52 PM   #13
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No power in outlet


Yes, you have an upstream open connection.
It may be just the hot side that is open.
If both hot and neutral are open an upstream GFI becomes more likely. GFIs can be reset and still not deliver power to the load terminals.

Using a known good ground you should have 120v between this ground and the hot side [black wire and short slot] of the problem outlet.

If the hot is good and a known good lamp doesn't light, then the neutral is open.

In any case you'll have to go upstream in this sequence of outlets to find where you have lost the connection. This requires you to see inside walls, unless the electricians on this site have some tricks and rules of thumb they'll share with you.

There are circuit tracers for $30 and up that may help you with this, and depending on the minimum price of an electrician's service call they may be a pretty good gamble, especially if you can sell it later on e-bay.
If a service call is $120 and a circuit tracer is $60 then the rational choice is to buy a tracer if you have at least a 50% [at least 100x(60/120] chance of finding the problem with a tracer. Just sitting here, with those prices I'd take those odds.

I guess another way to trace this is to plug in a turned-on lamp into the failed outlet,
get a wooden dowel with a diameter the size of an outlet or smaller [1" diameter or smaller] and
place on end of the dowel on a candidate socket [not the plate] and
whack the other end of the dowel lightly so the duplex outlet is shaken slightly. There should be enough give in the socket mounting for this to work.
If the gap between wires is very small the lamp might flicker when you hit the outlet with the loose connection.
This just might work and it is free and quick.

You can do this.

Last edited by Yoyizit; 03-18-2009 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 03-19-2009, 11:01 AM   #14
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No power in outlet


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Any recent work done?
New cabinets, new shelf?
Anything that could have penetrated a wire in the wall?

You may have a loose connection
Best bet is to shut power off to all outlets in the area
Verify they do not have power
Then check the connections on all the outlets
Make sure they are not using the "back stabbed" connections

Hi, I have not had anywork done. Should we check all the connections in the house or just the main level?

Thanks
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Old 03-19-2009, 11:05 AM   #15
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No power in outlet


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyizit View Post
Yes, you have an upstream open connection.
It may be just the hot side that is open.
If both hot and neutral are open an upstream GFI becomes more likely. GFIs can be reset and still not deliver power to the load terminals.

Using a known good ground you should have 120v between this ground and the hot side [black wire and short slot] of the problem outlet.

If the hot is good and a known good lamp doesn't light, then the neutral is open.

In any case you'll have to go upstream in this sequence of outlets to find where you have lost the connection. This requires you to see inside walls, unless the electricians on this site have some tricks and rules of thumb they'll share with you.

There are circuit tracers for $30 and up that may help you with this, and depending on the minimum price of an electrician's service call they may be a pretty good gamble, especially if you can sell it later on e-bay.
If a service call is $120 and a circuit tracer is $60 then the rational choice is to buy a tracer if you have at least a 50% [at least 100x(60/120] chance of finding the problem with a tracer. Just sitting here, with those prices I'd take those odds.

I guess another way to trace this is to plug in a turned-on lamp into the failed outlet,
get a wooden dowel with a diameter the size of an outlet or smaller [1" diameter or smaller] and
place on end of the dowel on a candidate socket [not the plate] and
whack the other end of the dowel lightly so the duplex outlet is shaken slightly. There should be enough give in the socket mounting for this to work.
If the gap between wires is very small the lamp might flicker when you hit the outlet with the loose connection.
This just might work and it is free and quick.

You can do this.
Hi, We are planning on checking all the connections first, will this replace the "socket/dowel" or should we do both? Next, if that does not work, we are going to try the circuit tracer. Does this test through the walls?

Thanks

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