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Old 09-06-2012, 09:20 AM   #16
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
By the letter of the code it would be required, but I'd be damned if I would run one. Those switches SUCK, and the compartments is small enough.
IMO the intent of this code section does not apply to this application.
FYI, the 2014 ROP is set to exempt door jamb switches from the neutral requirement. You can thank Dennis Alwon for the proposal.

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9-91 Log #329 NEC-P09 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(404.2(C) Exception No. 3)
__________________________________________________ ______________
Submitter: Dennis Alwon, Alwon Electric Inc.
Recommendation: Add new text to read as follows:
404.2(C)(3) Boxes used for lights controlled by a door jamb switch.
Substantiation: These door jamb switches are very tiny and adding another
wire will make it more difficult for wire fill. It also is unnecessary as an
electronic controller cannot be used in jamb switch boxes anyway.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Panel Statement: See the Panel action and statement on Proposal 9-89. The submitter suggested adding Exception no. 3 and there is no existing Exception no. 2.
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12

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Old 09-06-2012, 09:59 AM   #17
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


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Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
How did you do this while keeping the conductors from the circuit grouped? The way you wired it is quite non-complaint and quite possibly very unsafe.
This is a classic case of knowing how to make it work but it still not being right.

Also, "ground loops" are not an issue in circuits like this, and again you created an unsafe condition by not using one of them.

Care to give us some details on just how you wired this?
Sure, that's why I asked, since I've never done a 4-way before. From line to load, there's switch 1(3way), switch 2(4way) and switch 3 (3 way). But in this case switches 1 and 3 already existed and I'm adding switch 2 in between. So cable runs from switch 1 to switch 2 and then back to the j-box for switch 1 before going on to switch 3.

Normally you'd just run a 12-3 from switch 1 to switch 2 and then from switch 2 to switch 3. The neutral isn't attached to any of the switches, it just follows along. But in this case I'm coming back to switch (box) 1 before going on to switch 3, so I didn't bother running the neutral from switch 1 out to switch 2 and then back to the j-box for switch 1. Clear as mud?

As for ground loops, thanks. I know the rule about iinterconnecting grounds, even for different circuits, but somehow this voice keeps cropping up from decades ago saying "avoid ground loops". Maybe this will shut that voice off permanently.

Phil S
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:38 AM   #18
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


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Originally Posted by Code05

FYI, the 2014 ROP is set to exempt door jamb switches from the neutral requirement. You can thank Dennis Alwon for the proposal.
Cool...thanks.
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Old 09-06-2012, 01:01 PM   #19
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


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FYI, the 2014 ROP is set to exempt door jamb switches from the neutral requirement. You can thank Dennis Alwon for the proposal.
Very cool. I had no idea he submitted this.
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:31 PM   #20
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


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Sure, that's why I asked, since I've never done a 4-way before. From line to load, there's switch 1(3way), switch 2(4way) and switch 3 (3 way). But in this case switches 1 and 3 already existed and I'm adding switch 2 in between. So cable runs from switch 1 to switch 2 and then back to the j-box for switch 1 before going on to switch 3.

Normally you'd just run a 12-3 from switch 1 to switch 2 and then from switch 2 to switch 3. The neutral isn't attached to any of the switches, it just follows along. But in this case I'm coming back to switch (box) 1 before going on to switch 3, so I didn't bother running the neutral from switch 1 out to switch 2 and then back to the j-box for switch 1. Clear as mud?

As for ground loops, thanks. I know the rule about iinterconnecting grounds, even for different circuits, but somehow this voice keeps cropping up from decades ago saying "avoid ground loops". Maybe this will shut that voice off permanently.

Phil S
So Speedy, what's the verdict? I just passed electrical inspection a couple of hours ago but I wasn't home and didn't have a chance to ask him about the 4-way wiring. Regardless, I don't want to do something that's unsafe and I'd rather not do something that isn't code compliant.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:34 PM   #21
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


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Now you've diverted me. What sucks about these switches?
They suck, use low voltage contacts and a closet relay...
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:53 AM   #22
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


Occupancy sensor in the ceiling of the closet.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:13 PM   #23
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As someone who has installed dimmers, then removed and reinstalled different dimmers throughout my house, I have a question.

Since the purpose of this rule is to allow electronic switches, are they going to mandate larger boxes? I know when I went through and installed my first set of controllable dimmers (Insteon), they used pigtails and that was a whole lot of wires in some boxes. Add in the size of the devices, and it was a tight fit. Probably exceeded code.

They were all replaced with Lutron non-neutral dimmers* that had terminal screws. These fit much better, but still a larger box would have been better.

So now that all switch boxes will have the correct wiring, will they be of a size to handle the devices that people will now try and fit into them?


* Looking back I should have used their neutral dimmers, but with 50+ dimmers at an extra $10 and one less wire to deal with, it made sense at the time. Now I can't use any LED or CFL bulbs in those lights. Not that I ever really wanted to, but I can't even if I did.
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:18 PM   #24
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No they are not. Device fill is calculated by the number of device straps (yolks), not the size of the device.
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:31 PM   #25
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


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Since the purpose of this rule is to allow electronic switches, are they going to mandate larger boxes? I know when I went through and installed my first set of controllable dimmers (Insteon), they used pigtails and that was a whole lot of wires in some boxes. Add in the size of the devices, and it was a tight fit. Probably exceeded code.

T

So now that all switch boxes will have the correct wiring, will they be of a size to handle the devices that people will now try and fit into them?


* Looking back I should have used their neutral dimmers, but with 50+ dimmers at an extra $10 and one less wire to deal with, it made sense at the time. Now I can't use any LED or CFL bulbs in those lights. Not that I ever really wanted to, but I can't even if I did.
The pigtails on the dimmers and any pigtails you add do not count toward the number of conductors for box fill calculations. (at least not under NEC)
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Old 09-07-2012, 05:53 PM   #26
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


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Originally Posted by stickboy1375

They suck, use low voltage contacts and a closet relay...
What is a closet relay?
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:35 PM   #27
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


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What is a closet relay?

http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Store/AM/Remcon.htm
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:52 PM   #28
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I love Remcons. Only thing is no one around me stocks them. I have to order 'em.
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:54 PM   #29
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No more switch loops - does it apply?


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How do low voltage contact integrate with with this?
http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Store/AM/Remcon.htm
How do low voltage contacts integrate with this?
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:58 PM   #30
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How do low voltage contacts integrate with this?
See the red and white leads off the top of the unit? those are an end switch for a low voltage switch.


Last edited by stickboy1375; 09-07-2012 at 07:06 PM.
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