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Old 08-02-2012, 09:20 PM   #16
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Absolutely NOT!

I don't understand why.
Well self justifying what you want to do really isn't the right approach either...


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The ground will not be coming from the main panel. It will be attached to the grounding bar in the subpanel that is grounded by a separate grounding rod at the subpanel.
And what do you think that will accomplish? You simply lack the knowledge of how an electrical system works. That is a VERY dangerous situation what you propose.




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How is this any different from having a separate neutral running from the main panel? If the bare ground is pig-tailed to an insulated section of #10 wire at both ends, then why could it not serve as the neutral? It's insulated from beginning to end.
Because it uninsulated.... and you are trying to use a grounding conductor as a grounded conductor.



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As long as the neutral and ground are isolated at the sub-panel, I can't see how this is any different than running 8-3 w/ ground to the subpanel since the ground is going to be essentially unused.
Um, I'm kind of lost for words on this statement.


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Old 08-02-2012, 10:17 PM   #17
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Randell Tarin, what you are proposing to do is simply wrong. It's against code, there is no debating that. I see no reason to voluntarily break the code (and the law) to save a couple bucks in this situation. As said earlier, you can save a bit on using a smaller gauge wire.

Just for the sake of discussion, if I understand what you proposed to do correctly, the situation between your house and the well house won't be any different than the situation between your house and your neighbor's house that are on the same transformer. But in the end, it's still against code. I've learned that sometimes it's a waste of time trying to rationalize the code, it's best to just follow it.
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:13 AM   #18
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Just spend few minuites to study this diagram from our good member which he posted quite few time so this will show you the correct legit way.




That will clear up the question what ya hitting at it.

Please do run the proper type conductors to the subpanel this is the safest methold and I know you mention unused ground conductor just look at the diagram you will see why it is USED all the time!

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Old 08-03-2012, 08:12 AM   #19
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Just spend few minuites to study this diagram from our good member which he posted quite few time so this will show you the correct legit way.




That will clear up the question what ya hitting at it.

Please do run the proper type conductors to the subpanel this is the safest methold and I know you mention unused ground conductor just look at the diagram you will see why it is USED all the time!

Merci,
Marc
Thank you for a clear rational explanation without getting all snarky. I've decided to just use a windmill.
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:26 AM   #20
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Why is there no Laugh button here?
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:04 AM   #21
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if you really don't want to put in a neutral, you could put in a transformer. It would take the 220 to 110. But think about the future. Perhaps it would be a good idea to put in external gfcis for power tools, whatever, but it wouldnt be worth it to run those off of a transformer. That said, you can get some lights that take 220, and I'm sure you could find a heater that takes 220. But in the long run you'd be better off with a neutral.
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Old 08-03-2012, 06:11 PM   #22
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if you really don't want to put in a neutral, you could put in a transformer. It would take the 220 to 110. But think about the future. Perhaps it would be a good idea to put in external gfcis for power tools, whatever, but it wouldnt be worth it to run those off of a transformer. That said, you can get some lights that take 220, and I'm sure you could find a heater that takes 220. But in the long run you'd be better off with a neutral.
Will code allow me to do either of these two things:

(1) Can I run a single strand of white #8 (rated for wet locations) in the same conduit as the #8-2 w/g AWG UF to serve as the neutral? OR
(2) Can I run #14AWG UF in the same conduit as the 8-2 and just forgo a subpanel altogether? The difference in costs from doing this to upgrading to #8-3 AWG UF is about $300.

I just want to have a single 110 circuit for possibly a light and a plug for an electric pipe wrap during the winter.
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Old 08-03-2012, 06:17 PM   #23
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Will code allow me to do either of these two things:

(1) Can I run a single strand of white #8 (rated for wet locations) in the same conduit as the #8-2 w/g AWG UF to serve as the neutral?
Why? Why are you trying to do this any wrong way that you can think of? Why not just do it the right way? I just don't understand...

UF is expensive, I see no reason to run it in pipe when you can just run THWN instead for less money. I can't see why in the world you would want to run UF and a single conductor...
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Old 08-03-2012, 06:40 PM   #24
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Why? Why are you trying to do this any wrong way that you can think of? Why not just do it the right way? I just don't understand...

UF is expensive, I see no reason to run it in pipe when you can just run THWN instead for less money. I can't see why in the world you would want to run UF and a single conductor...
I'm trying to do it the cheapest right way possible. Primarily, because I just spent $$$$$$ putting in a deep well and I'm tapped out.

My sources don't carry THWN cable. It would have to be ordered. I have a short time frame to get my cable run. (I have to be wired in by Monday) I can only get UF.

At my local sources, the 8-3 UF is about twice as much in costs as the 8-2 UF. For my intended use, I can't cost justify an additional $350.

The only reason I was going to put the UF in conduit is because we have had issues with gophers chewing through the insulation of other UF feeds on the property.

Now, will you answer my other question? Can I simply run a separate #14 AWG cable in the same conduit for a separate 110 circuit and just forgo the subpanel altogether?
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Old 08-03-2012, 06:58 PM   #25
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I'm trying to do it the cheapest right way possible. Primarily, because I just spent $$$$$$ putting in a deep well and I'm tapped out.

My sources don't carry THWN cable. It would have to be ordered. I have a short time frame to get my cable run. (I have to be wired in by Monday) I can only get UF.
So where would you get the single strand of #8? "(1) Can I run a single strand of white #8"

You could have ordered the wire when you made this thread and had it anywhere in the country before Monday.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:19 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Randell Tarin View Post
I'm trying to do it the cheapest right way possible. Primarily, because I just spent $$$$$$ putting in a deep well and I'm tapped out.

My sources don't carry THWN cable. It would have to be ordered. I have a short time frame to get my cable run. (I have to be wired in by Monday) I can only get UF.

At my local sources, the 8-3 UF is about twice as much in costs as the 8-2 UF. For my intended use, I can't cost justify an additional $350.

The only reason I was going to put the UF in conduit is because we have had issues with gophers chewing through the insulation of other UF feeds on the property.

Now, will you answer my other question? Can I simply run a separate #14 AWG cable in the same conduit for a separate 110 circuit and just forgo the subpanel altogether?
I put in bold very simple that question if you have well house then no due you have two single circuit and the code do not allow it at all so you will need a single MWBC to meet this code there is no other way around at all.

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Old 08-06-2012, 02:04 AM   #27
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I think if he contacts the inspector and asks they may allow the white run seperate as long as the conduit is terminated at the panels and not just inside the wall and free aired. It would be a hack job to be sure but it may pass as technically they're all in the same raceway. If this is ok'd why not use your 8/3 for a 30 sub panel. Your pump isn't going to draw anywhere near 30 amps. At 2hp it will be around 1500w or so. This will leave room for a light and plug. Seperate grounding will be required as you mention.

The reasoning behind not using the bare ground as a neutral is that it becomes current carrying. This could seriously injure or kill someone. Your talking current of probably 12a with the pump running. You can't just tape it. Wire insulation has a certain dielectric rating, this is what gives its voltage rating. You would need to put enough tape on it to give it the rating of an insulated wire. This is not possible where the cable is inside the sheath. Ie: 600v wire needs enough dielectric material to stop 600v from "jumping" through it. It's a poor explanation, but best I can do while half asleep lol.
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:53 AM   #28
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Your talking current of probably 12a with the pump running.
Line to Line loads will not have any current on grounded conductor, only Line to Neutral loads, the pump is 240v.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:19 AM   #29
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You will need a subpanel. There is no way around it. Thus, you will need to follow all the codes pertaining to subpanels installed in detached buildings. You cannot pull a 8-2 UF and a separate wire for the neutral.

You will either need to purchase 8-3 UF or conduit and THHN/THWN. For your information most THHN is dual rated THHN/THWN. Where are you getting your supplies from. They SHOULD be able to tell you this.

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