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Old 02-19-2009, 07:17 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
I do like the look without all the NMB sticking out everywhere

I had 5 junction boxes near my main panel, and I mean BIG junction boxes. Nothing was labeled, a real mess, old cloth wiring. It was upgraded from 100a to 200a before we bought the house

Fear is looking in your 200a panel & realizing that water is dripping IN your panel from the feed wire. I had the service buried & a new panel installed. I added a 100 sub, 60a sub in the pool cabana

I ran the 5 wires on the side when the old panel was there. The electrician was supposed to run them in the top when the new panel went in. I was pretty ticked when I saw he ran them in the side

I use an excel spreadsheet to track circuits & what they feed
Then I print them out & staple them up near the panel
The three grey boxes on the right are timers for the Christmas display - 40a each. I have a 4th timer - not used yet
To the right of the three boxes there are sets of blank face GFCI's that go to each outside circuit


I like the spreadsheet idea. You know you have all that slack you can rerun them through the top.

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Old 02-19-2009, 08:54 AM   #17
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MWBC stands for "multi wire branch circuit" Means we can stick in a double pole breaker (exceptions per 2005 code, required everywhere in the 2008) and feed a circuit with two hots and only one neutral. They share the neutral and the neutral takes the current balance between the two. In a perfectly balanced load, the neutral sees 0 amps.

And the best part.... It (2 hots & a neutral) only counts as 2 CCC when your derating...

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Old 02-19-2009, 08:57 AM   #18
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I might do that, just want to find a large junction box.

I have two 200 amp panels, one with all of the bx and some new circuits, and one with all of the romex. I will try to clean the panels up sometime. Somebody "lost" 4 screws on each cover. I got new screws for the covers.
6x6x4 at Home Depot =$15
8x8x4 at Home Depot =$22
10x10x4 at Home Depot =$29

*well they are close to those prices, thats the best I can remember. the 10x10x4 is really nice. Make sure you have a drill and tap, they don't come with a hole for the ground screw. The irwin drill bit and tap together (if you can find them together in one pack) for a 10-32 are about $3. I've drilled and tapped many holes with mine and it still works great.

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Old 02-19-2009, 09:03 AM   #19
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I like the spreadsheet idea. You know you have all that slack you can rerun them through the top.
Yeah, moving the 5 circuits is on my to-do list. But I also dislike the little covers that go in place of the removed knock-out. But I dislike the wires more

Thanks, the spreadsheet is very handy - especially with rewiring
I also color code the circuits
Yellow means Do not add to circuit
Orange are older cloth circuits to be replaced
---most of these are combined lighting/outlet circuits
I also indicate which circuits are 100% traced for devices
Different color for AFCI or GFCI circuits

With all the changes over the past few years it makes it much easier to change & update what's where
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:03 AM   #20
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always learning something new. now I have to look up what the MWBC and what its for and why run 'em.

compared to all the rats nests you see out there, thats one really neat job. I saw some union boxes that were perfect kinda like yours
Thank You.

The MWBC's save you from running an extra neutral, i.e. so you have 2 hots and 1 neutral. I don't really care much about the wire. But you have to be aware of conduit fill. You need to derate your amperage when you have more than a certin number of Current carrying conductors in a conduit. 9 and below allow you to use wire at it's normal amperage. i.e. 12=20A 14=15A.

WithOUT MWBC if you have a 3/4" conduit comming off your panel, you will max it out as follows
4 - 20A branch circuits (could be any amp), you count the neutral with a regular circuit, so 4 circuits, puts you at 8. If you add one more, your at 10, and your over the limit.

With MWBC, you run:
4 - 20A 240v (from a double pole breaker, but you can use tham as 120v circuits), 3 wire circuits, of which one the hot get counted, not the neutral. So you can run a total of 8 circuits in one conduit with MWBC's. Doubling the capicity. That can save running dozens of pieces of conduit in a house / building.

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Old 02-19-2009, 09:05 AM   #21
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Yeah, moving the 5 circuits is on my to-do list. But I also dislike the little covers that go in place of the removed knock-out. But I dislike the wires more
Use the screw in type knock outs, they are about $1 each, but are easy to install and don't have sharp edges to scrape the wires. They don'y have them at home depot, only find them at Menards.
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:07 AM   #22
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I like the spreadsheet idea. You know you have all that slack you can rerun them through the top.
I am planing on doing a spreadsheet type of setup for here and my parents. It is on my list for the next for days for my parents. Not that it will get used much, as I have things so spread out now, that I'd would not be surprised if they never trip a breaker again.

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Old 02-19-2009, 09:13 AM   #23
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Deleted duplicate post

Last edited by Michael Thomas; 02-19-2009 at 01:09 PM. Reason: Duplicate post
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:22 AM   #24
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It's new in 210.4(D) Grouping. The ungrounded and neutral conductors of a multiwire branch circuit shall be grouped together in at least one location by wire ties or similar means at the point of origination. Exception: Grouping is not required where the circuit conductors are contained in a single raceway or cable that makes the grouping obvious."



In my area some AHJs require something more permanent than electrical tape to meet "wire ties or similar means".

----------------

Also, for readers who may come by later, the “simultaneous disconnecting means” requirement for multiwire circuits was expanded in 2008: "(B) Disconnecting Means. Each multiwire branch circuit shall have a means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point where the branch circuit originates."




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Home Inspection: ""A business with illogically high liability, slim profit margins and limited economies of scale. An incredibly diverse, multi-disciplined consulting service, delivered under difficult in-field circumstances, before a hostile audience in an impossibly short time frame, requiring the production of an extraordinarily detailed technical report, almost instantly, without benefit of research facilities or resources." - Alan Carson
What would you consider more perment than electrical tape? A zip tie is sure easier to cut off than unwraping tape. I use super 33, that stuff doesn't fall off. What are they requesting you use?

For this job, we were still under nec 2005, but I wanted to comply with 2008. The inspectors here are not very complete or diligent, so the burden is really on me to get it right.

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Old 02-19-2009, 01:14 PM   #25
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What would you consider more perment than electrical tape? A zip tie is sure easier to cut off than unwraping tape. I use super 33, that stuff doesn't fall off.
A cable tie can be cut off, but it's more durable long-term than some electrical tape - it's really up to the AHJ.
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:17 PM   #26
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Jamie, Do AFCIs work on MWBCs?
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:03 PM   #27
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Jamie, Do AFCIs work on MWBCs?

Yup, if they are double pole.
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:20 PM   #28
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Yup, if they are double pole.
I agree, but I think they are expensive. AFCI got put off another year in Wisconsin.

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Old 02-19-2009, 04:04 PM   #29
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I agree, but I think they are expensive. AFCI got put off another year in Wisconsin.

Jamie

And they sure are expensive.

http://ecatalog.squared.com/catalog/.../17407011.html
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Old 02-19-2009, 05:48 PM   #30
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Thanks for taking the time and doing a little teaching here. Its really appreciated.

I always ASSumed that anytime I saw a two pole breaker it was for 240 volts but these aren't?

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