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Old 09-18-2010, 02:32 AM   #1
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


I was going to run a new 12/2 wire to the new dishwasher, but my electrical panel is full...each fuse has a wire attached to it...

I don't have the money to update the old one (I have heard it is around $2000.00 or more) so what would be my options?

Can I tie the 12/2 into an existing 14/2 breaker - on a line that runs only a few lights?

Thanks

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Old 09-18-2010, 03:47 AM   #2
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


At this point,you should call an Electrician.

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Old 09-18-2010, 06:22 AM   #3
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by hellothere123 View Post
I was going to run a new 12/2 wire to the new dishwasher, but my electrical panel is full...each fuse has a wire attached to it...

I don't have the money to update the old one (I have heard it is around $2000.00 or more) so what would be my options?

Can I tie the 12/2 into an existing 14/2 breaker - on a line that runs only a few lights?

Thanks

Of course you could do that but another option is that usually when we install a panel right next to the panel there is an outlet usually a GFCI and we put that outlet on its own breaker. If you have that than you can just tap into that breaker as well. But as far as double up on a breaker yes you can.
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Old 09-18-2010, 11:24 AM   #4
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


Re tapping existing circuits, all permanently installed dishwashers I'm aware of are required by the manufacturer to be installed on a dedicated circuit:

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Old 09-19-2010, 12:27 AM   #5
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


We have 2 codes here, US vs Canadian

I'm Canadian and I heard (talked to an installer) that I can tie it into an existing breaker - tie it into one with a small load on of stuff that won't effect much if it trips.

I guess I'll do that as I don't feel like spending 2 grand updating the box...but obviously will have to do it since I will be adding an AC unit to my furnace in the next few years.
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Old 09-19-2010, 01:17 AM   #6
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


Just wait until the Canadian electrician can confirm this one but in USA side no it have to be it own circuit or share with the garbage dispoal unit that one of the two I done pretty often.

Also some breaker are listed to take two conductor { most are not listed to take two conductor so you will have to make a pigtail and wirenut two conductors }

The reason why most dishwasher manufacter required to be it own circuit due most dishwasher will run anywhere from 6 to 12 amps depending on model so that will load up pretty good.

Plus there may a local code do show up as well so check it out as well.

If you need more room in the load centre you can add a subpanel otherwise you will have to put in larger load centre.

Merci.
Marc
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Old 09-19-2010, 03:00 AM   #7
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


I have a similar issue, my panel is full. Run a full line right to the panel anyway, then choose a breaker that does not have much load on it, and pig tail two wire ends to it then put it in. In the future when you do upgrade your panel, then those can be separated into separate circuits.
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Old 09-19-2010, 05:42 AM   #8
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


Sorry for asking a newbie question, I just want to make sure I do work in the panel correctly.

So I'd basically have 1 conductor running to the breaker...with the other end of that conductor connecting to the 2 conductors that go to the outlet and the dishwasher.

Is that the idea?

Thansk again
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Old 09-19-2010, 06:20 AM   #9
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


Yup, take the 2 hot lines in, twist them together with another scrap of same gauge wire, then into the breaker. Be sure the wire-nutting and taping is done INSIDE the panel, not outside! (like this place was when I got it....lol) Thank You for asking this question, it helps me out as I may end up with a similar dilemma come Monday when the elec. insp. comes to see my messterpiece.

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Old 09-19-2010, 06:39 AM   #10
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by hellothere123 View Post
Sorry for asking a newbie question, I just want to make sure I do work in the panel correctly.

So I'd basically have 1 conductor running to the breaker...with the other end of that conductor connecting to the 2 conductors that go to the outlet and the dishwasher.

Is that the idea?

Thansk again
Depends on how "right" you want to do it.

1) NEC 110.3(B) incorporates the manufacturer's installation instructions, which supersede any more lenient provisions of the code.

So, strictly speaking, if the manufacturer specifies a dedicated circuit for the DW, that's what is required, per the NEC. (When this gets discussed on electrical discussion groups, some commentators note that the manufacturer's requirement is likely present to reduce liability rather than for more practical reasons, but in the end agree that this is the way the NEC is written.)

This prohibition is the first reason you "cannot" just tap some other, lightly loaded, circuit to power the DW.

2) Never the less, some local code authorities will allow a dishwasher and disposal on the same circuit, usually citing as 210.23(A)(2) as allowing this use. (Many others will not allow both loads to share this circuit, and require a dedicated circuit for the DW).

If your AHJ allows this, you could power the DW off an existing 20A circuit serving only a disposal, however you need to be aware that some disposals impose a load of 11A or more, so a DW and disposal on the same circuit can exceed the circuit's allowable total load.

3) The NEC prohibits powering either the DW or the disposal from the kitchen small appliance (counter) circuits, so you cannot tap those circuits for the DW and any point along their length.

4) What about other circuits?

I'm not aware of any AHJ in my area that allows this. If they did, other provisions (for example NEC 210.23(A)(2)) would apply, and would likely prohibit attachment of a DW to many circuits.

So the bottom line is: check with your local AHJ, however be prepared to discover that powering a DW off any existing circuit (other than perhaps a dedicated 20A disposal circuit) is likely prohibited.
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Old 09-19-2010, 12:34 PM   #11
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New Dishwasher...panel is full!!!


I will check the code to see if I am able to "tie into" an existing circuit.

My dishwasher manual says about electrical requirements: "120 volt, 60hz,AC only, 15 or 20 amp fused electrical supply...copper wire only, 2 wire with ground.


IF I am able to tie in by code then:

Since the wiring is all 14/2, which runs on a 15 amp breaker would I run a 12/2 from dishwasher to panel and put it on a 15 amp breaker with existing 14/2 wire?

Reason I am asking is that if I can do this then when I do update the panel then I'd have the proper 12/2 20 amp line run and then I'd be able to have that line dedicated to a 20 amp breaker.

Or should I just run a 14/2 to the 15 amp breaker and worry about running a new line when I update the panel?

I guess a third option is to run a 12/2 or 14/2 just to a outlet and tie it in there?

Thanks for helping with this one...MUCH appreciated.

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