Neutral Bar Blues

Avramel

Hi, I have a Siemens G1624ML1125 sub panel (part number can also be found as G1624L1125) load center with 16 circuits in it. I need to add 4 more circuits to the panel and as it s a 16/24 panel I figured I would be able to add a couple of tandems to free up space easily. Unfortunately murphy's law struck and when I pulled of the cover for the panel and the neutral bar only has 16 spaces all of which are used.

Has any one here used this sub panel? Looking at it, I think I will need to add a second sub panel. However, given that the original panel is rated for 24 circuits I think I'm missing something.

Gigs

You can buy an additional grounding/neutral bar.

If the lugs are rated for multiple wires, you can probably double up grounds (but not neutrals). The manufacturer will have this information.

bradnailer

Check code but normally, you can put more than one wire in a neutral bar slot.

Gigs

408.41 (2008) specifically forbids double lugging neutrals. So it's not allowed.

Grounds may be allowed double lugged though. That doesn't help him too much since this is a subpanel with probably separate bars.

jerryh3

No, you can't. You can put multiple grounds if the bar is rated, but you can't double neutrals.

Avramel

Exactly, I can double up the grounds to get the spaced for the ground wires but the neutrals have me stumped. The neutral bar is insulated from the panel box and I didn't see insulated neutral bar kits at the local big box stores.

Jim Port

The ground and neutrals are electrically isolated from each other in panels other than service equipment. The bar you are looking for is not insulated.

Are your ground on the same bar as your neutrals? If they are they should not be.

Gigs

http://www.westwaysupply.com/fw253756.html

maybe? I don't know for sure.. what does the label inside the box say? That usually lists the accessory part numbers.

jerryh3

Can you take a picture of the box? If it's rated for 24 circuits it should have 24 neutrals holes.

Avramel

The grounds and the neutrals are on separate bars. Each bar has 16 spaces and all the spaces are currently full.

jerryh3

Pigtail some of the neutrals?

Avramel

I'll post a picture of the panel box tonight. Hopefully that will help clear things up.

HouseHelper

Siemans panels have neutral bars on either side of the breakers that can be linked together and isolated from the enclosure.

If your setup has them separated and the resultant ground bar bonded, you can add a new grounding bus to the predrilled holes in the enclosure. You would move all the grounds to that, remove the bond on the exisiting bus and connect it to the current neutral bus, doubling your current number of neutral connection points.

__________________
"Life is hard. Life is harder when you're stupid." John Wayne

Gigs

I love how these manufacturers each have their own little weirdness with the grounding bars.

InPhase277

You could pigtail the neutrals, as Jerry said. But, LISTEN CAREFULLY! You cannot just grab any ol' neutral and pigtail it to any ol' neutral. You can take two neutrals from circuits fed from opposite phases and pigtail them together and then to the neutral bar.

Or, you could tie any two neutrals together and use a #10 pigtail for 15 A circuits, and #8 for 20 A circuits. For the love of God, if you do go this route, heed the warnings above!