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Old 02-09-2008, 11:46 PM   #31
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Do we get to have this argument again?

If your saying that only utilization equipment fixed in place is allowed you will also see in (A)(2) that it exempts light fixtures from being included in the 50% rule. In other words I can supply all the light fixtures (within reason of course) I want on the 20 amp gfci receptacle circuit so long as it does not leave the bathroom.

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Old 02-10-2008, 12:02 AM   #32
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This is nothing to argue about. 210.23 A (2) simply states "The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminares (lighting fixtures) shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch circuit rating ....."

I have no intentions of any disrespect and apologize if I have offended anyone. Just thought putting our heads together to clarify interpetations for safe installations.
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Old 02-10-2008, 12:18 AM   #33
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No offense taken. I hope I did not imply that. Maybe my sense of humor needs fine tuning...

So what part are we disagreeing on? I believe your saying that the vanity lights cannot be served by the 20 amp bathroom receptacle circuit and I'm saying you can supply them from it . Is that the premise for clarity we are seeking?
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Old 02-10-2008, 12:49 AM   #34
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Ok for clarity I finally found the CMP-3 reply to this exact question...so here goes

Question 4. We have had confusion regarding 210.11(C)(3), Exception, and 210.23(A), Exception. Can a bath light/fan and other light fixture(s) be on the 20-A, GFCI receptacle circuit if it feeds only a single bath room? Is there anything else to know about 210.11 and 210.23? B.S.
Answer 4. The question is being answered with the 2002 NEC as a guide document. The exact words of Section 210.11(C)(3), Exception, are as follows: "Where the 20-ampere circuit supplies a single bathroom, outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom shall be permitted to be supplied in accordance with 210.23(A)."The base rule of 210.11, Branch Circuits Required, (C) Dwelling Units, (3) Bathroom Branch Circuits states, "In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the bathroom receptacle outlet(s).
Such circuit shall have no other outlets. "Thus if you have a dwelling unit with three bathrooms on the same floor level or one or two other floor levels, you can take one 20-ampere branch circuit and feed the GFCI [210.8(A)(1)] protected receptacles in each one on that single circuit. But it is not to have any other outlet(s), meaning other than receptacles on it.With that said and under our first scenario you could have a receptacle in each of the three bathrooms or more in all three provided that you do not have any light outlets, fan units or other loads on that circuit. But what the exception, as was restated above, allows you to do if you choose and have enough branch circuit spaces available in the panelboard is to take one 20-ampere branch circuit to a bathroom; or if you have more than one bathroom in the dwelling, you can take a separate 20-ampere branch circuit to each bathroom location and then since it only serves that one room, you can have other outlets or have other equipment on that same circuit.
Perhaps now is a good time to review the definition of outlet per Article 100 which states: "Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." This could be a light or fan unit or combination of both or a smoke detector if you chose to put one in the bathroom area. Possibly even a motor to a hydromassage tub unit depending on its size. Remember under the exception, it stated, "to be supplied in accordance with" and we were directed to 210.23(A).
With 210.23 being Permissible Loads and (A), being 15- and 20-ampere Branch Circuits, the requirement then indicates "a 15- or 20-ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2)." Then(A)(1) states that "The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating." (A)(2) follow with,
"The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied."Under (A)(1) and with a 20-ampere circuit at 80 percent, you cannot have a cord-and-plug-connected piece of utilization equipment with a load greater than 16 amperes. As well under (A)(2) the total fastened in place utilization equipment cannot exceed 50 percent of the branch circuit ampere rating; or with a 20-ampere circuit have more than 10 amperes supplying that fixed piece of equipment and have lights or cord-and-plug equipment on that same circuit. Oftentimes what we see are baths with a hydro-massage bathtub and a connection made to that circuit, which puts the motor at a single-phase 120-volt, 1/2-hp motor or smaller. If the hydromassage tub has a -hp motor or larger, then a separate circuit would be required; and oftentimes the listing by the manufacturer or nationally recognized testing laboratory and its labeling may require a separate circuit and not allow it to be fed by the single 20-ampere circuit going to the bathroom.
In conclusion, the question as asked indicates "can a bath light/fan unit (fixed piece of utilization equipment, non-cord-and-plug connected utilization equipment) and other light fixtures be on a single 20-ampere GFCI circuit if it feeds only a single bathroom." The answer is yes provided the "bath light/fan unit" does not exceed the 50 percent requirement at 10 amperes on a 20-ampere branch circuit. The important thing to remember is that 210.11 addresses branch circuits required and (3) covers bathroom branch circuits. Whereas 210.23 addresses permissible loads and the two sections are cross-referenced. I am a firm believer in the more circuits the better and lightly load them because we all know that future electrical loads will be added and oftentimes are not planned for. Ray Weber, CMP-3
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Old 02-10-2008, 12:53 AM   #35
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Yes, vanity lights has to be served from a branch circuit outside of the bathroom. Inspectors will, at most inspections, will make a priority to check for this very situation (especially with unfamiliar electricians) and certainly fails the inspection..

Heater/vent/lights : Yes
Vent/ light : Yes
Vanity lights : No

If breaker or gfci trips, you would still have lights in a wet location. If vanity lights go out, you would still have light from the heater/vent. This requirement is mainly for personal safety.

I can see where you're coming from and it can be confusing, even to me at one time. It's good to discuss these topics from time to time and open the code books .
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Old 02-10-2008, 12:57 AM   #36
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RFTM = read the freakin manual???
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Old 02-10-2008, 12:59 AM   #37
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We posted at the same time I beat you by a fraction I found the CMP-3 reply to our exact question so what do you think? I believe it supports that vanity lights can be on this circuit, this is how I have understood this for several years or at least 2002. We use this exception a lot in 1/2 baths with only one duplex gfci. I certainly agree if you have double vanities and 2 gfci's ( two duplexes) then hit them and only them with a 20 amp circuit.

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Old 02-10-2008, 01:18 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idoelectric View Post
Yes, vanity lights has to be served from a branch circuit outside of the bathroom. Inspectors will, at most inspections, will make a priority to check for this very situation (especially with unfamiliar electricians) and certainly fails the inspection..

Heater/vent/lights : Yes
Vent/ light : Yes
Vanity lights : No

If breaker or gfci trips, you would still have lights in a wet location. If vanity lights go out, you would still have light from the heater/vent. This requirement is mainly for personal safety.

I can see where you're coming from and it can be confusing, even to me at one time. It's good to discuss these topics from time to time and open the code books .
We hashed this out early last morning. Turns out it is entirely permissible to have the entire bathroom on one circuit.

I agree that it SHOULDN'T be done. Now, what code article qualifies the statement that the vanity lights have to be served from a branch circuit outside the bathroom?

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Old 02-10-2008, 01:32 AM   #39
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Wow Stubbie, you must type way faster than I can. Let's try this, 1st read 210.11 C (3) then read 210.11 C Exeption. This is for the 20 amp gfci rec. Keep in mind that is says "shall comply with 210.23 A (1) and 210.23 A (2)

Next, if you go to 210.23 (A) is referring to general 15 and 20 amp circuits for lighting and receptacles. 210.23 A Exeption is separating the general branch circuit from the bathroom receptacle.

210.23 A (2) is referring to bathroom circuit (receptacle) in a single bathroom, not a general purpose branch circuit.

I currently have the 2002, 2005 (I'm using now) and 2008 (if you think this is bad, you haven't seen nothing yet) I have checked all 3 and they are the same with no changes.

Your method would fail inspection if you would to serve the vanity lights with bathroom circuit.
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Old 02-10-2008, 01:35 AM   #40
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InPhase,

210.23 A (2) The totla rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminares (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.


Make-up mirrors and table lamps are considered lighting units. hand held blow dryers, flat irons and curling irons are considered cord and plug UE.

Last edited by idoelectric; 02-10-2008 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 02-10-2008, 03:09 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idoelectric View Post
InPhase,

210.23 A (2) The totla rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminares (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.


Make-up mirrors and table lamps are considered lighting units. hand held blow dryers, flat irons and curling irons are considered cord and plug UE.
The Exception to 210.23(A) refers you to 210.11(C)(3), whose Exception refers you to 210.23(A)(1) and (2).

Read (A)(2) carefully. A make up mirror or a table lamp is cord and plug utilization equipment not fastened in place. The mention of lighting units means hard wired devices

The confusion occurs because the article mentions luminaires twice. It should be read: "Where the branch circuit also supplies lighting, no OTHER utilization equipment fastened in place shall exceed 50 % of the branch circuit rating."

Believe me, I thought it was wrong just yesterday, but I got to digging and it turns out the intent of the code articles on the subject is meant the way Stubbie has outlined it. That comes from the people who actually wrote the code, not just us.

Confusing language is the culprit. Take a look at this brief discussion on Mike Holt's forum: forums.mikeholt.com/archive/index.php/t-69503.html

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Old 02-10-2008, 10:10 AM   #42
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Sorry but I had to get some sleep.

Two things it won't fail inspection in my area by our inspectors. We have hashed out this particular section (s) of code so many times it is not funny anymore. So if it fails in your area then it is as Inphase said confusion over the code language. However if your inspectors or contractor will request clarification as we have from nfpa and cmp-3 you will be referred to the ROC report on that section and you will find what I just listed. (A)(2) is not prohibiting lights or lighting fixtures it is simply stating that you exempt them from the 50% calculation for the other fixed in place 'outlets' served by the gfci circuit. After all this sub section is talking about fixed in place utilization equipment for general purpose branch circuits where you can have luminaires on the same branch circuit. To me it is very clear fixed in place cannot total more than 50% or 10 amps but I do not include the lights the gfci circuit serves in a single bath application in that calculation.
Getting into whether it is a good idea or not seems irrelevant if we are talking code. But for the life of me I don't see what you guys find wrong with one duplex, a fan and light (s) on one 20 amp. Maybe a little dimming if I plug in that 1800 watt curling iron I use on my bald head.....

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Old 10-04-2009, 12:29 PM   #43
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This is what I believe you want. Click the image to enlarge. I would also suggest you use push connectors at the switch box for the grounds and hots and neutrals. This many wires going into the wirenuts is not easily done by someone not doing this everyday.
Hi,

I too have a bath project. I am hooking up a bath fan/light.heat combo. I want to put each function on a separate switch. If I am understanding your diagram, if I run pigtails of the black from the source to all the switches and the black form each of the operations and then twist all the neutrals together all should work just fine. I should mention that like your diagram, I have a single source.
Is this correct or am I all wet!

Thanks!!

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Old 03-11-2011, 11:31 PM   #44
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Hi, This is my first post and have a small basic understanding of electrical. My house is a two wire system built in 1947. I want to rewire the small bathroom due to i have a wall down (Plaster) and have some easy access to wire. I installed a vent fan over the tub and one additional switch to controll it. I also want to replace the one receptacle with a gfci. I have the 12-2 and will dedicate the bathroom to subpanel. What is the best bay to wire this bathroom. My understanding is if the fan is over the tub i should have it wired to the gfci.
-Bathrm has 2 switches (one for vanity and fan)
-It has 1 Outlet
Any help is greatly appreciated.
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Old 03-12-2011, 12:32 AM   #45
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Any help is greatly appreciated.
I would start with starting your own thread. When this one showed up as new, I started reading it from the beginning only to realize there was a guy that tagged onto the end asking about a situation of his own that he needed help with.

I think that deserves it's own thread. Don't you?

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