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Old 02-08-2008, 01:08 AM   #16
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Also as Silk asked what program did you use or are you just a perfectionist at MS paint lol


Actually I am retired and over the months I have generally drawn up 4 or 5 diagrams per week that are commonly asked for on DIY forums. I just found one that was close to what you have then quickly modified it. When I was working we had auto cad and that program software was 3 thousand bucks so.... I use paint and photo shop. There are better ways to go that aren't too terrible expensive I just haven't spent the time to research that software yet.

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Old 02-08-2008, 09:32 AM   #17
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Wouldn't it make sense to run the incoming power to the outler FIRST, then onto the switches? it would eliminate 1 cable from the switch box.
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:13 AM   #18
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It would be fine to do that but it always depends in old construction where power is easiest to access and the route you must take to get there. If this is new construction with open walls then yes I would say routing power to the receptacle then to the switches is fine but other than having one two wire cable less in the switch box it makes little difference.
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:20 PM   #19
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I might mention that other than being a violation of 210.11 (C)(3), it really isn't a good idea to have the GFCI on the same circuit as the lights. Of course, in a remodel situation where the walls aren't open and the budget is limited and yada yada... you may be excused.
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:07 AM   #20
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Ok so is this possible? I have a 3 gang box... I have one power supply coming in that needs to run 3 switches and a receptacle...
Inphase277

I might mention that based on the above and post #9 ... I considered the bathroom new construction or a complete remodel. The op isn't clear on it but he makes no mention that it is not anything else. Based on this it is not a violation of 210.11 (C)(3). Please explain your reasoning.

Also... how is the gfci a probem?
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:20 AM   #21
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Inphase277

I might mention that based on the above and post #9 ... I considered the bathroom new construction or a complete remodel. The op isn't clear on it but he makes no mention that it is not anything else. Based on this it is not a violation of 210.11 (C)(3). Please explain your reasoning.

Also... how is the gfci a probem?
I was just saying that if it were a remodel...

But 210.11(C)(3) says that a 20 A circuit shall be provided for the bathroom receptacle outlet(s), and that no other outlets can be served from this circuit. This means that the GFCI is required to have it's own circuit, and that the lights cannot be on that circuit.

The problem is that if you plug in the hair dryer, and the circuit trips, you are standing there in the dark, naked and wet!

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Old 02-09-2008, 01:32 AM   #22
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A single 20 amp circuit serving a single bathroom is allowed to serve anything in that bathroom including the receptacles. The only requirement is that it cannot leave the bathroom to serve anything else. Also those things served by that single 20 amp branch circuit other than the receptacles cannot supply a total load that would violate 210.23 (A)(2). Those things considered he is compliant with current code requirements.

Exception: Where the 20A circuit supplies only a single bathroom, it can supply power to outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom, such as lighting outlets or an exhaust fan. In that case, follow the requirements of 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2) for circuit loading.

If the gfci is located as shown it will be wired to the line terminals and will only lose power to the gfci not the rest of the circuit.
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:39 AM   #23
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A single 20 amp circuit serving a single bathroom is allowed to serve anything in that bathroom including the receptacles. The only requirement is that it cannot leave the bathroom to serve anything else. Also those things served by that single 20 amp branch circuit other than the receptacles cannot supply a total load that would violate 210.23 (A)(2). Those things considered he is compliant with current code requirements.

Exception: Where the 20A circuit supplies only a single bathroom, it can supply power to outlets for other equipment within the same bathroom, such as lighting outlets or an exhaust fan. In that case, follow the requirements of 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2) for circuit loading.

If the gfci is located as shown it will be wired to the line terminals and will only lose power to the gfci not the rest of the circuit.
Sorry, but no. Check the exception to 210.23(A).

And I was speaking of tripping the breaker, not the GFCI.

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Old 02-09-2008, 01:56 AM   #24
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I disagree but it isn't worth arguing over. The exception you cite is to refer you to the requirements of 210.(C)(3) where it gives you the single bathroom exception telling you the other utilization equipment must comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (2). It's rather clear to me and and your going to have to change thousands of new construction bathrooms it your right. Cause this exception is a common practice in the field.
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Old 02-09-2008, 02:15 AM   #25
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Of course it is worth arguing over! That's most of the fun. Sometimes we learn something.

210.23(A)(1) is for cord and plug connected equipment, which we know is not lighting.

210.23(A)(2) is for utilization equipment fastened in place, that is, in this instance, something like a hand dryer or wall mounted hair dryer. The mention of lighting fixtures in that section is a generalization for branch circuits.

I have never ever seen a bathroom GFCI circuit supply lighting in a new installation. It may be one thing to sneak power to a GFCI where there previously wasn't any, or to sneak power for something else from a GFCI in a remodel, but I don't know any electrician worth his salt that would, in a new residence, pull the lighting off the GFCI circuit. I think you are taking reading the code wrong in this instance, which isn't hard to do by any means.

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Old 02-09-2008, 02:35 AM   #26
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OK, I dozed a bit, and woke up to that stupid infomercial about 60's music...

But anyhow, with a little more clarity now, I guess you are right as far as it goes for a single bathroom. At least that's how the code reads.

Having said that, I still don't know a single electrician who would do that. Even putting GFCI's in different baths on a single circuit is frowned upon where I'm from. Like I said, if you plug something in, and the breaker trips, then there you are, in the dark. If you have 5 bathrooms, look in the panel and you will find 5 breakers for each GFCI. And none of those will turn the lights out..

But, you are right as far as the Code goes, I can admit when I'm wrong.

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Old 02-09-2008, 02:35 AM   #27
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Well you got that part right a person darn sure can read the code wrong...

Well only thing I can say is which is worse having the receptacle branch circuit serve multiple bathrooms and their receptacles or one bathroom and lights? ....speaking of tripping the breaker that is.

And to this day I have never had a problem finding my way out of a bathroom with the lights out....

If an exception appears in a section of code it is permissible to use it. And if not can you explain that exception in 210.11(C)(3)??

Why the exception is valid and points you to 210.23 A1 and A2 is to alert you to the load requirements of that exception in 210.11(C)(3) in order to use it. What it is saying is that if you supply the bathroom with a single 20 amp branch circuit and elect that exception then the other lights and fans or whatever can not exceed a total combined load of 10 amps.

And as far as how a bathroom is supplied it of course depends on the bathroom. If I'm running to a small bath ..ie..one basin, one duplex, shower, toilet fan and light combo I'm darn sure not going to dedicate a 20 amp to one receptacle. I rarely ever used the multiple bathroom receptacles on one 20 amp. But I'm retired now so I won't be doing it wrong anymore.....

Hey I just saw your last post and you actually had me scratchin my head a bit...no sweat I've been wrong more times than I like to remember... Besides having code discussions at this hour takes a lot of guts.

Last edited by Stubbie; 02-09-2008 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:11 PM   #28
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The illustration previously given, electrically will work but also at the same time violates NEC Code. The gfci receptacle should be on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. 210.23 A (2) allows a light/vent which is an utilization equipment fastened in place to be on the same circuit with gfci receptacle being that is not more than 50% of the circuit rating. BTW a hand held hair dryer is not considered an UFIP.

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Old 02-09-2008, 11:14 PM   #29
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The illustration previously given, electrically will work but also at the same time violates NEC Code. The gfci receptacle should be on a dedicated 20 amp circuit.
You know, I thought so too because I never do it that way. Turns out, however, that 210.11(C)(3) Exception allows it as long as that circuit doesn't supply anything else outside that bathroom.

Still isn't a good idea in my opinion, though.

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Old 02-09-2008, 11:35 PM   #30
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InPhase,
read 210.23 A and then 210.23 A (2) doesn't allow vanity light fixtures to be on bathroom circuit.

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