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Need URGENT help with question regarding fixing electrical panel in home

16K views 66 replies 25 participants last post by  Baxter01 
#1 · (Edited)
We are negotiating with seller on a property, and the biggest issue that came up during home inspection was the electrical panel. I need some advice on how to proceed with this issue, and how to get the seller to fix it for us.

Here are the home specs:
Style - single family home
Sqft. - 2500
Basement - 900 sqft. (partial)

Issue: 100 amp panel, with double tapped circuit breakers to bring 60 amps into the home.
The home has a Zinsco electrical panel. And the home inspector pointed out that it had reached it's capacity, and this was a safety issue concerning the double tapped circuit breakers and recommended a replacement of the panel. He quoted a low end estimate of around $4000.

So we had requested the seller to look into this issue, and upgrade to 200 amps while they are replacing the panel. Seller called their own electrician to review. And the electrician is saying that it is a 100 amp panel. And that he would "fix some of the breakers" to get it to par. And that 100 amp service is enough for a 2500 sqft. home. So now the seller is reluctant to replace the panel and upgrade to 200 amps.

Our real estate agent (who is a family friend) has used the same electrician in her home, so she recommends I should call and speak to the electrician myself to find out about the issue and his recommendations.

History about existing renters in the home: They use 10+yr old appliances in the home. And during home inspection, when the dish washer would change cycles the lights would flicker in the entire house. Clearly, 100 amp service is not enough. And when we move in we will have newer appliances (all electric powered, not gas) and plan to have larger TV's, and a home theater in the basement and possibly a back up generator.

Questions for all electricians and people with experience in this area:

Is 100 amp service really enough to power our stuff in this home?
What is ideal for this type of home?
Would "fixing the breakers" really resolve the problem? (see attachment for a picture of the panel and notes from the home inspector)
The seller has been very stubborn through out our negotiations in fixing any health and safety issues. Is there anything I can say to the seller that would change her mind about fixing the home?

If you guys have any info please let me know. I have until tomorrow to respond to respond to the seller.

Thanks!
 

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#12 ·
IMO this is NOT a defect. It is an old panel in an old home. The dreaded double taps are a MINOR issue as has been stated, and are NOT a "safety" issue.
Zinsco panels are a known problem, but you cannot fault the current owner for having one.
For the HI to say it is a defect that no more breaker can be added is sketchy at best. This is his OPINION, not a fact. Again, an old panel in an old home.

Also, IMO it is EXTREMELY unprofessional for him to quote prices like he did. That PROVES that the sole job of a H-I in today's world is to get a lower price for the buyer, or to get free UPGRADES out of the seller for the buyer.
You can quote me to your H-I on that.
 
#15 ·
Speedy Petey - thanks for your response. What do you recommend I do in this situation? Seller is willing to have their electrician "fix the breakers". I am not sure how they would fix because the panel is already at capacity.

Since you are a licensed electrician would it be fair to ask you for a quote on how much it would cost to upgrade to 200amps after they "fix" the breakers on the 100 amp panel?

Do you at least agree that a home that size will need 200 amp service?

Thanks!
 
#6 ·
It sounds like the electrician is working for the seller and giving you biased information. On these panels the power busses pit and corrode even when the rest of the panel looks fine. This causes a poor connection and overheating. "cleaning" the busses is not a legal fix. Have the breakers been removed and the busses inspected? The only way to know a house's amperage needs is with a Residential Load Calculation. Most electricians can't do one right. Did this electrician do one at all? Can you read the AWG number on the feed wires? The wires to the 60A breaker look like #6. No way that's 100A. You need #4 copper minimum, probably larger. Two wires in a breaker is a minor problem and an easy fix; the least of these issues.
 
#17 ·
Glensparky - thank you for your response. To answer your questions -

I am not sure whether breakers have been removed and busses inspected. I can ask the seller's electrician, and ask him to calculate the house's amperage. I don't know if he did calculated it when he looked at the panel.

It's hard to read the AWG number on the feed wires. I can try and find out from seller's electrician, if he remembers. And I will mention to him what you said about the 60a breaker.

I did not completely understand your last statement. Can you point out what is the bigger issue here, just so I know what to tell the electrician?

Thanks!
 
#5 ·
Hamerlane - Thanks for your response. The electrician confirmed that it's a 100amp panel. I guess what they're saying is they can "fix the breakers" without having to replace the panel. I don't see how that is possible since the panel is already at capacity. If they were to replace the existing 100 amp panel with a larger 100 amp panel, I told my attorney that we don't mind paying the difference for upgrading to 200 amp. There's only about $500 difference between 100 and 200 amp panel. But we have not gotten to that point yet.

I am still trying to get in touch with the electrician and ask him the following questions. Let me know if this sounds fair to you?

Can you confirm this is a 100 amp panel?

If they had space in the panel, why didn't they use that space instead of double tapping?

How much would it cost to keep it at 100 amp and "fix" or replace the 100 amp panel and breakers? How would you "fix" the breakers when the panel is already at capacity?

And how much would it cost to upgrade to a 200 amp service from where we are now? So replacing the electrical panel entirely and upgrading to 200 amp.

The home is over 2500 sq ft. with finished basement. The lights were flickering in the house when our home inspector ran the dish washer. We plan to add recessed lighting, newer appliances, larger TV's, home theater in basement, and possibly a back up generator. And all our appliances will be electric not gas so we will need that power. Is a 100 amp service really enough to power all our stuff?

Our inspector said that Zinsco panels are known to have issues and are not safe. Why do you recommend "fixing" the panel instead of replacing it?

Thanks!
 
#3 ·
If the panel and feed line from the meter are 100A, couldn't the 60A main breaker simply be upgraded to 100A?

Two wires to a breaker screw are a no-no. However, if the load on the two branches (actually, as far as the breaker is concerned, it's a single branch) is below the breaker rating, couldn't one of the two branches be taken off the breaker, and then tap into the other branch in a junction box outside of the breaker panel?

Or, could a sub-panel of 6-8 breakers be added for the additional circuits, plus some room to grow on?

As to 100A being sufficient. If you don't have air conditioning, my gut says yes. But the only way to tell would be to add up all the loads you have (or intend to add). Hot water heater, dryer, resistance heaters, fridges and dishwashers are probably the biggest loads. Lights (especially if you use mostly CFLs) will be a good deal less. Flat panel TVs actually use only a few amps, much less than the old CRT type.

The best way to get the seller to pay for this may be to tell him you won't purchase the home unless he does. :)

I'm a newbie, still learning too, so don't take the above as gospel, I'm asking the questions as much to increase my own knowledge.
 
#14 ·
Dave632 - Thanks for your reply. To answer your questions - yes there is HVAC in the home along with 50gal hot water heater, dryer, fridge and dishwasher. The electrician is saying that it's not a 60amp it's a 100 amp. I am not an electrician so I can't confirm by looking at the pics whether it's 60 or 100.

The seller is not agreeing to pay for fixing the electric panel. And both our attorneys have already gone back and forth on this issue several times, but the seller won't budge. We want to avoid walking away if we are talking about a couple grand worth of work. But I feel like without talking to their electrician, and getting estimates from other electricians in the area we are stuck with this negotiation. And even if we find out that 100 amp service is not enough, I don't think the seller is going to pay to upgrade, let alone fix the existing service.

I was leaning towards towards asking for a $4000 price reduction on the house and getting the panel upgraded myself if I can get a proper quote for upgrading to the 200amp service. Our closing date is December 3rd, and so my main concern is that we will have to wait 2 months before we get the electrical fixed, which we don't want to do. So I had asked my attorney if it is possible to ask the seller to upgrade to 200 amps, and we cover the difference between 100 and 200amps AFTER closing (given that it's done correctly and they provide receipts)? But I was told not to do that because the seller will not be convinced to drop $4000 credit since they've been reluctant to fix any of the major issues in the home.
 
#4 ·
where are you located?

i live in nj and my upgrade from a 60amp service to 200amp service was around $2300 so that $4000-4500 seems a bit high.

if you are planning to bring in all electric appliances, i would definitely upgrade the service, regardless of seller's action.

i guess you have to ask yourself if you are willing to walk for the price of that upgrade.

good luck and keep us informed.
 
#8 ·
Personally I would replace the panel and upgrade to 200 amps. As far as the seller paying for an upgrade from 100 to 200 amps, that might be difficult if their electrician does a load calculation based on the existing appliances/hvac system and feels a 100 amps is sufficient, the upgrade to 200 amps is not warranted. If they will not pay for 200 amp service and you really want the house (which it sounds like you do), I would offer to cover the difference between 100 and 200 amp services, which shouldn't be that much.
 
#10 ·
Zinsco panels have issues like arcing the buss bar and breakers failing to clear. Calling them unsafe can start an argument/debate. It appears that you may have the debate brewing.

I would simply take the position that the panel will be replaced before my family moves in. I would rather contract the replacement myself, and I am looking for a price reduction of $4,000 to do it. I would then have a figure of X dollars which would be my bottom line. If the negotiation doesn't get to my bottom line, I walk. Period, end of story.

I would also bear in mind that you will probably find more issues once the work is in progress. I don't think adding a whole house surge protector is going to fix the dishwasher/light problem. It may be a desirable feature, but it doesn't fix this issue.


When I went to contract the work, I'm not sure I would ask the homeowners electrician to bid. I want one that will look for the issues, not gloss over them.
 
#16 ·
Oso954 - thanks for the tip! I didn't factor the fact that additional issues could possibly pop up once the work is in progress. I agree about the surge protector. I think the home inspector might have recommended it to me because of the way the existing breakers were setup.

Thanks again!
 
#18 ·
Just as a data point.

My house is 2500 sf, all electric except for oil furnace (hot water, AC, range, oven, dryer, etc... no gas lines in my neighborhood). And it has 200A service.

With AC, I think 100A is definitely marginal, but as mentioned, the only way to really tell is to have a proper calculation done.
 
#20 ·
A load calculation at this point is moot. If the house is all original then a 100A service is all that was required at the time and all that is required now. Load calculations are NOT retroactive.

If there is room to add skinny breakers an electrician can simply do that and meet code. If not then if I were the seller I'd have a tiny sub-panel installed just to clear up the dreaded double-taps and be done with it. Better yet I'd splice a pigtail onto the two wires and have one wire going to the breaker. Even simpler and cheaper.
NO WAY I'd provide a 200A service UPGRADE simply to clear up two double-taps.
 
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#25 ·
Speedy Petey - thanks for your response. So far, from what you've mentioned, it seems to me that the existing (and confirmed) 100 amp panel can be brought up to code very easily by adding a sub-panel and may not cost a lot? The seller is agreeing to "fix the breakers" by using their electrician. I just want to have piece of mind that when I move into the home that there is no safety issue relating to electrical panel. Safety is my main concern, especially after hearing things about the Zinsco panels etc.

I understand that we are asking for an upgrade to 200 amp from seller, but I have offered to pay the upgrade difference if the seller will agree to fix the existing 100amp panel.

I guess another question for you is - would upgrading to 200amp require just a change in the electrical panel and breakers or is there more to it than that? You mentioned something about #4 copper minimum. Can you explain what that means? Could other issues potentially pop up when we upgrade to 200 amps?

I guess how should I proceed with this negotiation now that we have cleared up that the electrical issue is really not as big as my home inspector anticipated, who originally quoted $4000 as a low end estimate to fix the electrical panel? Should I have the seller "fix the breakers" and be done with it and then upgrade to 200 amps on my own? Would that mean double work and money if they are fixing one thing and we are upgrading to another?

Like I said, my main concern in the home is safety. This is the only thing keeping us from coming to an agreement. So it would be nice to get more clarification on how big this electrical issue really is. And whether I should just cave in and have seller bring it up to code and upgrade to 200 amp on my own.
 
#24 ·
To fix a double tapped breaker, all you have to do is splice a pigtail on to the double tapped wires and put the single wire to the breaker. You do not have to install a new breaker.

There is no one here that can accurate quote you a price for a job like this. Is there a main outside? How far is the water meter from the panel? Do you have to run extra to hit the ground rods? Does your area require AFCI breakers on a service change? Does either the meter socket or the panel have to move at all?

As you can see, there are a number of items that can influence the price. Anyone here quoting you a price for the service change has no clue what your area requires and what going rates are.
 
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#26 ·
k_buz - thanks for your response. I did not realize how much goes into getting a proper estimate. I will try and find out from the seller's electrician about the estimate to upgrade to 200 amp since he has been to the property and looked at their existing electrical panel etc. Plus my own agent (who is also our family friend) has used this electrician in her own home so I am hoping I will get an honest response from him.

Thanks!
 
#27 ·
Perhaps you simply need to change your negotiating approach. I agree with previous posters who noted that they would rather fix problems themselves, since that gives control over the repair, rather than rely on the homeowner to fix the problem, since that is out of your control. Why not simply make a list of everything you feel you need to fix, which would of course include the panel, but might include a variety of other items from appliance replacement, structural upgrades, door and window repair etc.. Then get bids or hire a professional estimator to assign a dollar value to the repairs.

Then subtract the cost of repairs from your offering price. That becomes your maximum price, if you can't get the house for the price you want, find another house. No arguing with the homeowner about the value of repairs, need for repairs, alternative repairs. You simply treat the house like you would a stock purchase, you make your best offer based on what you are willing to pay assuming you do all repairs.
 
#28 ·
Daniel Holzman - thanks for your response. Unfortunately, we have passed that point of negotiation. We have agreed on the price of the house, we have completed the home inspection. And now the only thing remaining is this electrical issue before we close on the deal. Our closing date has been finalized pending home inspection issue resolution. Which is where we are right now. So backing out of this deal for the sake of a couple grand does not sound like a good idea to me especially if we are getting everything else the way we want. And all our issues that we've asked the seller to fix have been relating to safety, structure, and hazards (radon mitigation). We are not asking for any cosmetic changes. That was all factored already into our negotiations in the beginning.
 
#29 ·
With your current situation I can only tell you what I would do.

Have the seller or his rep sign a doc stating that you and the seller will find a licensed master electrician that is neutral. Both you and the seller meet with the electrician and have him evaluate the situation based solely on code/safety aspects. The cost of the repairs determined by the electrician will be deducted from the purchase price unless they exceed $XX.XX (a mutualy agreed upon price).

If the seller balks it's up to you do decide if you want the house bad enough to eat the cost of the repairs.

Repairs prior to sale would be my last choice. You want your electrician doing the work.

Regarding the big concerns I'd look into the POCO's price for the transformer upgrade.
 
#30 ·
Offer the seller $4K less than you had planned and upgrade the panel after the closing. Or give the seller the option to upgrade to a 200 amp service and pay the full price.

If he refuses either offer-- Walk.
 
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#32 ·
asledge said:
Daltex - what's a POCO's price? I think we are fine with seller fixing the electrical panel as long as they have receipts and inspection notes to show from the electrician.
Hes assuming that you would have to have a new transformer set outside by your power company. I have only had this once when we turned a 200 amp service into a 800 amp service. Dont worry about it. I highly doubt it would be needed.
 
#37 ·
Dierte - thanks for your response. I am calling a neutral electrician to the house on Friday to get an estimate of:

a) Fixing existing 100amp panel to bring it up to code (seller's cost)
b) Upgrading to 200amps, whether it's possible and exact costs (my cost)

Thanks for all the advice. I really appreciate all your help on this!
 
#36 ·
asledge said:
Daltex - thanks for your advice. Looks like everyone else is busy watching the Presidential debates!

Quick question for ALL - do you know if electricians charge fees to come look at the electric panel? I just found out that it was not my agent, but the seller's agent who has used this electrician in the past, who recommended a quick fix for the electric panel and breakers. I would like to get a 3rd party electrician like you (Daltex) suggested and was wondering if there is a charge for getting estimates of the fixes?

Thanks.
It depends. I charge for a normal service call when a call like this comes in. Others might not.
 
#38 · (Edited)
My mistake about the 60A breaker and #6 wire. The split buss and IR photo threw me. 100A looks correct. If the electric hasn't changed since the house was built, Speedy Petey is correct, it's all grandfathered in. But, if improvements were made, like adding central air or gas changed to electric appliances, new load calcs were supposed to be done. And inspections should have failed when calculated amps exceeded capacity. So, if improvements were done and capacity was exceeded then someone dropped the ball. I believe this is an important unsafe condition. The other big issue is if the power busses are shot. This causes arcing, sparking and overheating.
 
#39 ·
My mistake about the 60A breaker and #6 wire. The split buss and IR photo threw me. 100A looks correct. If the electric hasn't changed since the house was built, Speedy Petey is correct, it's all grandfathered in. But, if improvements were made, like adding central air or gas changed to electric appliances, new load calcs were supposed to be done. And inspections should have failed when calculated amps exceeded capacity. So, if improvements were done and capacity was exceeded then someone dropped the ball. I believe this is an important unsafe condition.
Glennsparky - thanks for the update.

Silly question - if I were to upgrade to 200 amps would I need to rewire the entire house with new wires or like Dierte is suggesting that 200A service would require a larger diameter wire from the point of attachment down? I don't quite understand what goes into the upgrade process (in terms of time, money, and raw materials) so just wondering if it's a simple question or a loaded one?

Thanks.
 
#40 ·
I just looked at a 1800 square foot house that had mostly gas appliances. It calculated out to need less than 50 amp service. Even with air conditioning added it will still be less than 100.

The people have been living with this service for years. Unless the main has been tripping it sounds like the service size is fine.

There is no way the HI should be giving out prices. Unless they did a load calculation they would just be guessing at the electrical service size needed. Just because the panel is full does not mean it is overloaded.
 
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#42 ·
Jim Port - thanks for your reply. I thought it should be pretty straight forward answer that 200 amp service is the way to go, especially since ALL our appliances are electric, the home is around 2500 sqft plus finished basement which adds around 1000 sqft. And we would like to add a home theater in the basement with a backup generator to the home if possible. I wonder whether it's possible to measure the required amp service without actually plugging and running all these appliances in the home.
 
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