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-   -   Need a ruling! (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/need-ruling-103489/)

thesmackdown 05-03-2011 06:44 PM

Need a ruling!
 
I have a 100 amp panel in the garage that has two circuits that are 30 amp for a old welder the previous owner had. There is one 10/3 that runs from the panel to the first outlet. Then a line that runs from the first outlet to the second outlet.

Seems one breaker is using the black wire as hot and the second breaker is using the red wire as hot and I think both are sharing the same neutral.

First question is that ok?

Second, I want to change the plugs to 50 amp plugs and also change the breakers to 50 amp - I read somewhere that as long as I marked the outlets "For Welder Use Only" it was acceptable by code. Is this ok?

The Deez 05-03-2011 07:03 PM

This is acceptable provided the breakers are on different phases, you can't share a neutral with two circuits being fed from the same phase. You can change the plugs and the breakers but you will need to to up size the wire to #6 as #10 is only good for 30A

thesmackdown 05-03-2011 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Deez (Post 641590)
This is acceptable provided the breakers are on different phases, you can't share a neutral with two circuits being fed from the same phase. You can change the plugs and the breakers but you will need to to up size the wire to #6 as #10 is only good for 30A

OK so maybe I should go back to square one. This is what the manual for the welder says:

Quote:

3.04 Electrical Input Requirements
Plug the input cord into a properly grounded and protected
(fuse or circuit breaker) mains receptacle capable of
handling a minimum of 20 Amperes. The Fabricator 131
requires a 115VAC supply Voltage, the Fabricator 181
requires a 230VAC supply Voltage.
The Fabricator 131ís power cord is equipped with a NEMA
5-15P plug and will only connect to a NEMA 5-15P
receptacle.
The Fabricator 181ís power cord is equipped with a NEMA
6-50P plug and will only connect to a NEMA 6-50P
receptacle.
I have the Fabricator 181 - do I just need to change out the outlet to a 6-50P?

Speedy Petey 05-03-2011 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesmackdown (Post 641580)

Second, I want to change the plugs to 50 amp plugs and also change the breakers to 50 amp - I read somewhere that as long as I marked the outlets "For Welder Use Only" it was acceptable by code. Is this ok?

This is more than likely legal, but I DO NOT like to do this in a residential setting.

Most home based welders (people, not machines) do not care about duty cycle, and the next owner of the house is not going to care if it says "welder use only". They will plug in their kiln either way.

thesmackdown 05-03-2011 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey (Post 641691)
This is more than likely legal, but I DO NOT like to do this in a residential setting.

Most home based welders (people, not machines) do not care about duty cycle, and the next owner of the house is not going to care if it says "welder use only". They will plug in their kiln either way.

So, I should do the breakers and the plugs? Or just the plug based on the information from the manual?

The Deez 05-03-2011 09:03 PM

the receptical you need is a NEMA 6-50R. which is a 50A 250V 3 wire. I still don't think that is legal, but maybe it is. IMO in this case the wire should be sized to match the size of the breaker your feeding the equipment with, the breaker is to protect the wire, not the equipment. being a resi situation like pete said, this is the best way to go. commercial and industrial applications are a little diff.

The Deez 05-03-2011 09:04 PM

just the plug, you can feed #10's with a 30amp 2pole breaker, leave the breaker alone unless it trips out, then change the wire and the breaker

thesmackdown 05-03-2011 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Deez (Post 641703)
just the plug, you can feed #10's with a 30amp 2pole breaker, leave the breaker alone unless it trips out, then change the wire and the breaker

On a earlier point. To use two welders at the same time do the breakers need to be on different phases?

Right now they are both on the same side.

WillK 05-03-2011 10:15 PM

Just to be sure it's clear, changing the plug should be okay. Changing the breaker should only be done if you change the wire.

thesmackdown 05-03-2011 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillK (Post 641772)
Just to be sure it's clear, changing the plug should be okay. Changing the breaker should only be done if you change the wire.

Thanks for making it totally clear!

Saturday Cowboy 05-03-2011 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesmackdown (Post 641768)
On a earlier point. To use two welders at the same time do the breakers need to be on different phases?

Right now they are both on the same side.

most panels the phases are located on every other row. 1st row A phase 2nd row B phase, etc.

WillK 05-03-2011 10:52 PM

So on that question I'm a little confused about what you're saying. You're using a 230V welder or welders. These are going to use 2 hot wires and 1 neutral, so you're running off a 30A double pole breaker and as such you're using both phases of the electric service for each welder.

thesmackdown 05-03-2011 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillK (Post 641799)
So on that question I'm a little confused about what you're saying. You're using a 230V welder or welders. These are going to use 2 hot wires and 1 neutral, so you're running off a 30A double pole breaker and as such you're using both phases of the electric service for each welder.

Nope, both welders are single phase. The breakers look to be standard 30A breakers. Is that not going to work?

vsheetz 05-03-2011 11:18 PM

The 30a breaker and #10 wire will most likely be fine for that welder. I have a Miller 180 MIG welder on similar circuit. Rather than install a welder recep I installed the more common recep so I can readily plug in other equipment. Then I made an longer extension cable for the welder with conversion plug and recep. Works great.

thesmackdown 05-03-2011 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsheetz (Post 641814)
The 30a breaker and #10 wire will most likely be fine for that welder. I have a Miller 180 MIG welder on similar circuit. Rather than install a welder recep I installed the more common recep so I can readily plug in other equipment. Then I made an longer extension cable for the welder with conversion plug and recep. Works great.

Good idea as I was going to make up an extension cord anyway.

We are also going to run a Thermal Arc ArcMaster 185 at the same time (a friend is coming to do some welding training).


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