Need more neutral bus bar in panel.

helpless handyman · 04-24-2008, 11:21 AM

Thanks Stubbie, you just confirmed my decision. I was at the other end with the supplier get pricing. I have decided to go with the new panel. It will hold 30 full size breaker, or 20 full size and 10 tanden in the last 5 rows on each side, giving me a total of either 30 circuits (1-pole), or 40 circuits(20-1 pole and 10 tandens?. I will feel at peace knowing that if I do have to ever install a tanden, the panel will accept it. I should be fine with the 30 1 poles anyways. I don't like the idea that either tho the panel accepts the tanden, its really not meant to be used. I don't want problems down the line, and to be honest I don't really like the tanden breakers. If the space was made for one breaker, lets keep it real and not alter the manufacturers specifications. I really appreciate all the precious time you have taken to help me solve this issue, could have never done it without your expertise. Thanks Stubbie, send me the bill!

Stubbie · 04-24-2008, 12:22 PM

Hi Helpless

Sometime we just try to get too darn resourceful. Me too sometimes. This being a DIY forum I understand people have budgets. so I do my best to accomodate those needs. In your case I just think we expended our options to where we we starting to guess if that panel would take tandems. It is apparent to me that it does not have specifications to install them and there are safety reasons the manufacturer does this. So that was the turning point for me.
But we sure tried to make that panel work didn't we....

You have made the correct decision so be glad we got this resolved and didn't guess if that TB panel would be ok with tandems.

Have a good day

LawnGuyLandSparky · 04-24-2008, 02:02 PM

Glad you figured it out. The reason your tandems fit no problem is because, most likely, the side of the tandem breaker is a sticker or printing that reads "NON-CTL USE ONLY." Those breakers were meant to fit into any panel built before the tandem rejection features were mandated. And they're meant to replace tandems fitted into panels before U.L. came out with stricter standards.

The first clue for anybody should have been the limited number of neutrals that could fit on the neutral bus bars.

helpless handyman · 04-24-2008, 03:03 PM

Hi Lawnguylandsparky,

So in other words, you are saying that panels that are made to accept taden breakers bring excess neutral bus bars? I have openned up a few panels here at work, Commercial building where only union electricians are allowed to work in buildings and you should see the inside of these panels. When a circuit is needed, they will just add the circuit and if there is no room in the neutral bus bar, guess what happens, piggy tails inside the panel. This is not just one company we deal with, but several. My concern is my family and don't want something to slap me in the face down in the future. Stubbie worked Great with me trying to figure out this whole thing, and I really appreciate his precious time he took. I was just curious to see if this panel was rated for tandens, since it had a few already. Thanks to all

handyman78 · 04-24-2008, 04:45 PM

Helpless- For today's standards, I think LawnGuy was saying there should be one neutral space for every circuit allowed in that particular panel. (Also one ground space as well). This would prevent any need to double up, pigtail etc.

My home panel has a few doubled grounds which I think was acceptable for the time (1971), but today 1:1 is apparently the norm and code for either neutrals or grounds.

LawnGuyLandSparky · 04-24-2008, 05:05 PM

The panel will indicate if, and what size, 2 grounds can be used in one groung or neutral bar space. The NEC will not allow more than one neutral uner a neutral bar screw.

As for the tandem issue... It IS possible (though not legal) to install 40 tandem breakers into a 40-slot panel and get 80 circuits. For this reason the tandem rejection feature was required many years ago, however for those panels built before the requirement, they still manufacture these non-ctl use tandems to fit those panels. When used in newer panels they are a cheater. It is very common to see this, especially in residential panels. I'm not advocating their misuse, but just pointing out what is.

Imagine a homeowner getting an electrician to run an a/c circuit for 350.00, only to find out the panel is full and a subpanel or a new, larger panel is also necessary.

helpless handyman · 04-24-2008, 10:15 PM

Thanks, problem solved