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Old 04-22-2008, 09:47 AM   #16
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Stubbie, Thanks so much for all your time and effort you have put into this post, it couldn't have been any better. I want to Thank all of you guys that took time to answer this post as well. Darren, thanks for your advise as well, no hard feelings here. I know you only meant well for my safety. Like I mention before, I am aware how dangerous working in a panel can be! I will be leaning towards a subpanel, this way I can get rid of the tanden breakers. I am going to install the panels flush with the wall, so I will be doing the 4 wire install. I will need to use flexible metal conduit from main panel to subpanel. What size of flexible metal conduit would be appropriate to run the four # 6 wires? Also, is flexible metal conduit allowed? Thanks guys

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Old 04-22-2008, 10:16 AM   #17
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Helpless

FMC is fine as long as you install a ground wire in it and don't use the FMC for ground. You need 3/4 or 1 inch. Three #6 copper THHN (the neutral must be white) and a #10 copper green ground.
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Old 04-22-2008, 11:46 AM   #18
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Stubbie, Thanks again. Can I get a recommendation on a sub panel? Maybe with more circuits? I know you mention a 6 space, 12 circuits with tandens. Don't we want to stay away from the tandens? Or are they allowed on a sub? Thanks for all your help.
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Old 04-22-2008, 12:44 PM   #19
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


The tandems are perfectly fine in panels that allow them. You cannot exceed the branch circuits allowed by the panel by using them. You can if you prefer to use full size buy a panel that uses them and does not allow tandems. I like cutler hammer (CH) not (BR). I like panels with copper busses not aluminum but really any are fine. I also like Square d but I'm not crazy about the neutral bar configuration. I also like split neutral panels that have two neutral bars. Sometimes one can be unbonded from the one the neutral of the feeder connects to and it can serve as the ground bar by bonding only it to the metal of the panel. Otherwise you just buy a ground bar kit. If you want the model number of a few square d's or cutler hammers I can supply them for you. How many circuits are you wanting?
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Old 04-22-2008, 02:23 PM   #20
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


That would be Great. Is there anywhere I can get specs on my panel, TBB10. I google with no luck, I know you electricians got the good connections

This is the only thing I came up with:
ITEM NUM: ES78621012079
DESCRIPTION: Thomas & Betts TBB10(16-24)C - 1 Each
MANUFACTURER: Thomas & Betts
MANUFACTURER ITEM ID: TBB10(16-24)C
FEATURES:
Main Breaker Loadcenter Electrical Power Panel
14 in. Wd X 3-7/8 in. Dp, 120/240Vac 1Ph, 100A, 3-Wire, NEMA 1, 16 Type Tb & 16 Type A 1-Pole Spaces, 8 Type Tb & 6 Type A 2-Pole Spaces, Indoor, 10Kaic, 6-1/0 Awg Alum/Copper Lugs
Priced Per Panel
SPECIFICATIONS: 14' Wd X 3-7/8' Dp, 120/240Vac 1Ph, 100A, 3-Wire, NEMA 1, 16 Type Tb & 16 Type A 1-Pole Spaces, 8 Type Tb & 6 Type A 2-Pole Spaces, Indoor, 10Kaic, 6-1/0 Awg Alum/Copper Lugs;

Last edited by helpless handyman; 04-22-2008 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:19 PM   #21
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


I'm unable to help you on a thomas betts panel. However tandems are ctl meaning that they will not connect to a buss stab that isn't designed for them. If you using tandems and they have not been tampered with to defeat the ctl feature and if those tandems are listed for that panel then likely they will fit on any buss stab from your description. Generally tandems fit on stabs that are notched like below......or have little tabs on the side like Ge panel busses.
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:26 PM   #22
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Just saw your specifications. Your panel has 16 full sized spaces and 24 circuits if you use tandems. This 16/24 also means not all the spaces will accept tandems otherwise it would be 16/32. Its a 100 amp panel with copper busses.
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:28 PM   #23
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Stubbie, the tandens I installed were Murray's and no alterations were done to them. They just fitted in with no problem. Thanks
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:43 PM   #24
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Ok that is good. It could be that all the spaces will take tandems. Did you notice anything different about the buss stabs? Like notches or not.... some did some didn't??
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Old 04-22-2008, 03:47 PM   #25
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No stubbie So, that means if they fit they can be used? How can I tell on the panel if tandens are allowed?

I will look at the cover tonight when I get home and read it again. But I didn't see anything there on tandens. Thanks Stubbie!

Last edited by helpless handyman; 04-22-2008 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:54 PM   #26
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Ok I finally was able to get hold of my electrical supply and they referred me this literature


TYPE TB


Suitable replacements for Challenger “C” Series, Homeline, Murray, Siemens, Thomas & Betts, and Westinghouse/Bryant



So it looks reasonable that a murray will fit a tb breaker panel but I'm not finding anything out about that breaker panel and whether it will accept tandems.
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Old 04-23-2008, 08:58 PM   #27
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Hi Stubbie, this is what I was able to read from the panel label. TBB10 (20-20)C, 125 Amp Max Type-1

Thomas & Betts Circuit Breakers Type A, TB, TBH,TBBD,TBBQ, TBWH,TBSN, GFB, Theses two were a little bad to read, CFSH, CFB could be something close to that. Thanks, Let me know if any are tandens?

I got a quote on a Square D QO series 100 amp panel, 30 space, 30 1 pole breakers, $220.00. Let me know if this is a good or crapy panel? Thanks for all your help.

Last edited by helpless handyman; 04-23-2008 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:12 PM   #28
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Well you know what breakers fit that panel now....

The square d QO is among the best panels out there. You won't go wrong with it.
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:24 AM   #29
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Okay, I am in need of some advise. I am max out on breakers, and I am using 4 tandens as of now. Will need to install one more tanden to complete the entire new wiring that was done in my house. Should I upgrade to a panel with more breakers? Or should I add the other tanden and call it a day? Thanks guys
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:43 AM   #30
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Hello Helpless

Ok I finally got my fill of trying to figure this panel out but persistance paid off and one of my co-workers on a side job yesterday gave me a source for tb breakers.
A thomas and betts tandem or piggy back breaker is a TBBR...example TBBR1515 or TBBR2020.

Now if you notice there is no TBBR listed on your panel cover sheet. And it says 20-20 which tells me it has 20 spaces and 20 circuits. This would indicate that it will not take tandem breakers or at least you are not supposed to use them. I personally am not a fan of using them but at the same time it is fine....if the panel is designed to accept them.
In your case I just think it is a bad idea. My advice is to spend the dollars and get a new panel and lets both stop chasing our tails trying to make this panel work out....

Take a look at this site and you can match up the breakers with what your cover sheet shows. None of them are tandems.

http://www.aplussupply.com/break/tb/tbbreak.htm

So again my advice is get that QO panel or another new panel


Last edited by Stubbie; 04-24-2008 at 09:46 AM.
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