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Old 04-21-2008, 03:40 PM   #1
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


I have a TBB10 panel, it has two neutral bus bar. I need at least 4 more, can I pig tail a neutral inside the panel? If so how many are allowed? Thanks guys.

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Old 04-21-2008, 05:10 PM   #2
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


By pigtail, do you mean attach another neutral bar and run a correctly sized neutral wire from the existing neutral bar to the new one? I'm not sure if you can do that or not to be honest.

If you're asking if you can tie two neutrals together in the panel and pigtail from that connection to a single lug on the neutral bar (one wire serving two neutrals)...No you can't.

Assuming we're dealing with a main panel/main point of service and not a sub-panel, you can get another ground bar, attach it to the panel jacket, and put all or some of the grounds on that bar...Thereby freeing up some space on the neutral bar to individually land your neutrals.

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Old 04-21-2008, 06:27 PM   #3
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


If it's the main panel can you double up some of your grounds?
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:49 PM   #4
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Okay, no room in panel for another neutral bus bar, they are two already. Okay, so No pig tailing inside panel, got that. So it's okay to attach two neutrals to one screw on the panel?
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Old 04-21-2008, 07:54 PM   #5
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


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Okay, no room in panel for another neutral bus bar, they are two already. Okay, so No pig tailing inside panel, got that. So it's okay to attach two neutrals to one screw on the panel?
No. Only one nuetral per screw. Do you have a ground bar installed?
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Old 04-21-2008, 08:13 PM   #6
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Okay, maybe I am not explaining this right, I have a TBB10 main panel, it has room for 20 breakers. They are two neutral bars on panel, one on each side. When I mean neutral bar, I am refering to where the white wires gets screwed on too. The wires in the panel are 12/2 and 12/3 armored cable with no ground. If I am not mistaking the armored cable is the ground. Hope this helps. Thanks

** The neutral bars are isolated from the panel with these black plastic feet, then there is a ground wire on there that grounds to the panel. Then there is a green ground wire from the panel to the water meter, hope this helps. I know that the white is the ground for all the lines.

Last edited by helpless handyman; 04-21-2008 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:05 PM   #7
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


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I know that the white is the ground for all the lines.
With a comment like that i would recommend you do not do any work inside your main panel. Hire an electrican who knows exactly what is going on.
Sorry to be so frank, but electricity is nothing to guess with.
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:26 PM   #8
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Thanks, but I just wired my entire house. It was looked over by an electrician friend of mine and its up to code. He is out of town now, and that's why I am asking for help.

Darren, you didn't have to chew me up this way. Believe me, if I didn't know how dangerous a panel is, I wouldn't be all in it. I am aware that one can get killed if precaution is not taken seriously. Thanks for your help anyway. Inside the panel, the neutral bar ends up being the ground. What I mean by this is that the white wires are srewed into the neutral bar, then a ground wire is attached to this neutral bar, and that same ground wire is grounded to the panel. Then a ground wires goes from the panel to the water pipe, thats how its been.

Last edited by helpless handyman; 04-21-2008 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:31 PM   #9
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


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Thanks, but I just wired my entire house. It was looked over by an electrician friend of mine and its up to code. He is out of town now, and that's why I am asking for help.
How many circuits are in the panel?
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:39 PM   #10
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


They are 20 circuits, all 20 amp, then there is a double 20 amp that is for washer and dryer, (dryer is gas not electric). I had to add 3 tanden breakers, and that is why I am short on the neutrals now. The neutral bar holds 10 on each side of the panel. Thanks so much.
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Old 04-21-2008, 11:34 PM   #11
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


You have a 20 circuit panel and it appears you have installed all the neutrals and grounded legs that the panel will accept. So really isn't much you can do that would be code compliant. Thomas betts is a pretty rare load center around my parts.

This is a DIY site so I'm not sure why some are so concerned if someone is misspoken on occassion. You seem to be knowledgeable enough for what your doing. I just don't have any answers for you. The panel is designed for 20 grounded legs and you have more than that.

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-21-2008 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 08:45 AM   #12
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Thanks so much Stubbie What would you suggest or recommend? Should I get the panel upgraded? If so what panel would you recommend? Should I install a subpanel? This is the time to do it, since the basement walls are open. I only really need space for three more white neutrals, everything else is wired new, and will have no future add ons. The reason I ran out was this house was wired so badly, maybe in the 1960's. I rewired everything, window a/c on there own circuits, bathroom upstairs has 2 circuits, GFCI and another GFCI for whirlpool tub. Kitchen has 3 circuits, GFCI, Overhood microwave, Refrigerator. I added enough outlets so that extension cords will not exist in my house, lol. I looked at the panel again and if I were to add another neutral bus bar, it would be very cramped inside the panel. I want to keep breathing room inside the panel. Thanks so much for time and suggestions. All comments are welcomed, also do you know by any chance how many tanden breakers are allowed in the panel? Thanks again.
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Old 04-22-2008, 09:28 AM   #13
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


A new panel wouldn't cost all that much at all. You can get a 42 slot Square D Homeline, for example, and plenty of breakers for probably less than $200.

Don't be too mad at Darren for jumping on you. He's looking out for you. You said that your white wires...Neutrals...Are grounds. Hopefully that was a typo, but like I said, after reading that he's justifiably looking out for you.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:18 AM   #14
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


Hi Helpless

Well a new panel is fine but it can pose some problems with getting your wiring to connect properly, Meaning some 42 circuit panels will make it difficult for your wiring to reach all the termination points in a lot of cases. So I don't have a problem with a new panel but chose selectively one that will best fit your situation. You can pigtail your wiring in a new panel if necessary to get everything to connect correctly.

I'm thinking a sub-panel will be just fine for what your doing. Just make room for a double pole breaker and move any circuits that will reach the sub-panel over to it plus your new additional branch circuits. I'd get a sub panel that has like 6 spaces and 12 circuits (12 if you install tandems in all spaces) and it only needs to be a main lug panel. You will need to will need to run 4 wires over to it H-H-N-grd or if you use metal conduit and individual wires and not cables the conduit can serve as your ground. So three wires and metal conduit in that case. I'd put the sub on a 60 amp breaker so use #6 copper and metal conduit or if you use a cable it will have the ground sized properly. If you use pvc conduit then #6 copper with a #10 green ground.

The installation will look like this....click the drawing to enlarge.....
Attached Thumbnails
Need more neutral bus bar in panel.-4-wire-feeder-same-building.jpg  

Last edited by Stubbie; 04-22-2008 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 10:29 AM   #15
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Need more neutral bus bar in panel.


You asked about how many tandems a panel will accept and that usually depends. Many panels will accept them in any location and some only accept them is certain areas of the panels. For instance a panel will say 30/30 which is 30 spaces 30 single pole circuits no tandems or it might say 12/24 which is 12 full sizespaces and 24 circuits if you use tandem single poles in all spaces. Some panels will have variations from that where lets say only 12 spaces in the panel will allow connection to tandem breakers and the rest of the spaces must use full size breakers. the cover sheet on the door of the panel, if you can still read it, should give you this information.

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