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Old 01-06-2012, 11:12 PM   #121
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


Not to stir the pot but I do have a question. In another thread J.V. mentioned that a service could be extended to an outbuilding with 3 wires as long as it was tapped off at the meter or before any bonding takes place. I'm getting very confused as to what the difference is.

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Old 01-06-2012, 11:22 PM   #122
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


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I looked at the pic closely and followed the aluminum into his breaker panel. It looked ok to me. Maybe no?
If you looked real close you would also see 5 wires entering from the meter socket....
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:35 PM   #123
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


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If you looked real close you would also see 5 wires entering from the meter socket....
You're right!! What is up with that? And it looks like some of them are in a sheath.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:38 PM   #124
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


I think the curly black one is bonded in the same lug as the copper.
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:02 AM   #125
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


Yep, I'm not sure what is going on, one of those wires is probably the gec for one of the electrodes.

There are 200 amp meter sockets that have provisions (lugs) on the load terminals for 100 amp sub-feeds. I'm not sure what the situation was where J.V. mentioned this, but normally these sub-feeds are permitted on rural agricultural properties.

The code reference is 230.40 exception 3
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:09 AM   #126
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


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A question I have is, according to the articles here, it's OK to send a 3 wire feed to the barn under 2005 rules. In 2008 rules, it's not ok anymore. I know this statement doesn't change the safety of the situation... but electricity has been around for a long time. They didn't figure out that breakers wouldn't trip unless a ground wire was ran until after 2008?
No, you're still misunderstanding the circuitry here. The configuration you have installed WAS NEVER CODE COMPLIANT, AND NEVER SAFE! A three-wire feeder WITH NEUTRAL AND GROUND BONDED IN THE NEW PANEL was allowed until 2008, and only if it originated from the service equipment, not from a subpanel. That's essentially just an extension of the utility's drop to your property. Even though it's no longer allowed, I wouldn't object to that - it's safe as long as the neutral conductor remains intact.

It has NEVER been legal, accepted, or safe, to have a grounding system that is not bonded to neutral. This is a critical distinction. This is what you have installed. This is what Stubbie was explaining the perils of. All equipment grounding conductors MUST BE BONDED TO NEUTRAL SOMEWHERE.

You really need to get your head around the concept of bonding vs. grounding. Does someone have a convenient link to a Mike Holt thingy about this?

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Old 01-07-2012, 12:29 AM   #127
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


I don't know if you all have convinced the OP yet, but I for one greatly appreciate this conversation. It has really helped me understand why the ground and neutral need to be isolated in a sub-panel. Thank-you all!

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Old 01-07-2012, 12:32 AM   #128
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I don't know if you all have convinced the OP yet, but I for one greatly appreciate this conversation. It has really helped me understand why the ground and neutral need to be isolated in a sub-panel. Thank-you all!

Dan
You know what...if somebody learns something from all of this then it's worth it. Glad we could help you.
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:35 AM   #129
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


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You really need to get your head around the concept of bonding vs. grounding. Does someone have a convenient link to a Mike Holt thingy about this?
You mean THIS ?
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:59 AM   #130
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


A couple of my artistically talented diagrams are in order ..

In an effort to show a comparison of the the 'barn' panel in this thread I have two diagrams.

The first diagram shows the Op's barn panel as it is presently wired only I left out the house sub panels he has to avoid confusion. I simply am showing a service equipment panel with a 3 wire feeder going to a panel in a detached building ... barn if you like....

The second diagram is a properly bonded 3 wire feeder that allows fault current to utilize the 'feeder' neutral to get back to the source transformer so that a breaker will trip. Understand that the bonding jumper (just like the one in the OPs barn panel) has been installed on the neutral bar in my drawing ... the ground bar is simply bonded to the metal enclosure by means of the mounting screws as it is not on insulated stand offs like the neutral bar but has metal to metal contact. The fault path includes the metal of the panel due to this bonding.

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Note that in the OPs barn panel both the grounding bar and the neutral bar are on insulated standoffs effectively isolating them from the metal of the enclosure and therefore both must have bonding jumpers like the one he has on the grounding bar in order for fault current to get to the feeder neutral to return to the source.
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right-unbonded-3-wire-sub-panel.jpg   Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right-bonded-3-wire-sub-panel-fault-path.jpg  
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:10 AM   #131
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


And one showing why you cannot run other metallic paths to the detached building when using a 3 wire feeder.
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right-bonded-3-wire-sub-panel-viloation-1.jpg  
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:01 AM   #132
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


Now see what you guys did....the poster hasnt been around since post 103. Wonder what that means.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:15 PM   #133
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


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If you looked real close you would also see 5 wires entering from the meter socket....
I hadn't noticed this before. I had thought the service conductors were entering from the left but now I guess they are entering from the top along with the groounding electrode conductors?
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:47 PM   #134
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Need to know if my grounds and neutrals are connected right


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I hadn't noticed this before. I had thought the service conductors were entering from the left but now I guess they are entering from the top along with the grounding electrode conductors?
Yep that's correct, I'm assuming those are gec's but who knows .... the op is finished with us. He just couldn't believe we know what we are talking about in his installation. It's a shame cause he has a real potential of getting someone killed the way he has the panels bonded.

His biggest problem is he thinks the connection to ground (earth) is what the breakers need to trip on fault.
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Old 01-07-2012, 08:49 PM   #135
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the op is finished with us.
The OP last posted less than a day ago ... he could be taking Saturday off. Let's not panic that he's been scared away yet.

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