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Old 09-26-2012, 01:38 PM   #1
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Need help installing new service and making old service a sub panel


Hi Guys,

I just added an addition to our house and we were told to move the service to the back of the new addition. Currently the old house has the service coming in the side of the house in a 100 amp service box and is wired to a 100 amp circuit breaker box. I installed a new 100 amp service box in the back of our addition w/ no problems, got it grounded to the ground bar with #6 copper and going outside to 2 8' grounding bars completely underground spaced 8' apart according to code. I bought 3 50' chunks of copper cable and ran them between the old service box and the new box but that's where I need clarification.

From what I am reading, I am going to have to split the grounds in the old box onto their own grounding bar so they are not bonded with the neutral feeds as I can only have neutrals connected to the ground at the main service panel. Is that correct?

Also, do I have to bond both of the boxes together with a separate isolated #6 copper wire or is the current ground on the old box enough (grounded to own rod as well as water service pipe). With this is mind will I have to run a separate #6 copper from the new service box to the water pipe as well, or will the old box being connected there be sufficient.

Since I'm using 3 wires to connect them both, I'm assuming 2 will be the hots from the main box and 1 will be the neutral but how do I connect the neutral from the new box to the old one with only 1 neutral bolt in the new box?

I have included a picture of what I have if this helps you see where I'm at.


Thanks so much
Jeff


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Old 09-26-2012, 03:40 PM   #2
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Need help installing new service and making old service a sub panel


Quote:
I bought 3 50' chunks of copper cable and ran them between the old service box and the new box but that's where I need clarification.
What did you run the chunks in? Looks like you need a #8 green chunk of copper.

Quote:
From what I am reading, I am going to have to split the grounds in the old box onto their own grounding bar so they are not bonded with the neutral feeds as I can only have neutrals connected to the ground at the main service panel. Is that correct?
Yes, it "looks" like this has been done, just remove the green bonding screw.

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do I have to bond both of the boxes together with a separate isolated #6 copper
No, see first answer.

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but how do I connect the neutral from the new box to the old one with only 1 neutral bolt in the new box?
You can buy a lug to add on to the existing neutral bar that will accept larger wire.

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Old 09-26-2012, 03:54 PM   #3
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Need help installing new service and making old service a sub panel


Also, your cold water ground needs to be moved to your new panel now that it is the "service".
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:33 PM   #4
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Need help installing new service and making old service a sub panel


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What did you run the chunks in? Looks like you need a #8 green chunk of copper.


You can buy a lug to add on to the existing neutral bar that will accept larger wire.
I used #3 plastic coated copper wires and ran them through my floor joists of my addition and into the existing home and then up through the floor to the existing service box. No conduit was used as electrical inspector said it would be fine if it was out of the way in the joists.


I bought about 60' of #6 braided uncovered copper wire to ground the new service box to the water main, will this gauge be good enough? Does it hurt to keep the old panel grounded to the water main as well? or should i remove that line? The old one is connected to its own copper grounding rod.

From what you said, I don't have to connect the two boxes together with a ground because the grounding of the panels to the outside and the water main will be enough. Just wanna be clear so i don't go buy extra copper wire at the current prices HAHA!!

I'll pick up the extra lug tomorrow, assume they just attach with a screw to the bar.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:40 PM   #5
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Need help installing new service and making old service a sub panel


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I don't have to connect the two boxes together with a ground because the grounding of the panels to the outside and the water main will be enough. Just wanna be clear so i don't go buy extra copper wire at the current prices HAHA!!
I didn't say that. You need to run 4 wires from the new panel to the old. 2 hots, neutral, and ground. The wire from your GEC needs to be moved to your new panel. The existing supplementary electrode conductor should be abandoned in the old panel since you have installed a new one in the new panel.

Don't know where you live however, running these wires like you have just isn't correct, safe, etc. they NEED to be in some sort of conduit. You should want to do this right even if the inspector is a dumbass.

Maybe Stubie could find it in his heart to PM you one of his diagrams pertaining to this installation.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:50 PM   #6
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Need help installing new service and making old service a sub panel


http://www.diychatroom.com/attachmen...e-building.jpg


Here ya go. Hopefully you can see it. Here's a link for a better picture
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Old 09-26-2012, 07:12 PM   #7
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Need help installing new service and making old service a sub panel


I definitely want to do this right so I will pull the wires and install the conduit and then run them through it. The inspector said they don't require conduit unless the wire is in a position where it can be tugged, etc. So i figure they consider the plastic coating rugged enough since the wires wouldn't be moving at all. Kind've like wires in your walls aren't required to have conduit in my neck of the woods, you can just run the wires w/ their plastic sheath. Guess being extra safe isn't a bad thing. Now, my wires are each separate including the ground, i didn't think about getting a cable with all 4 of the wires in one package. Since the ground wire going from one box to the other is uncoated, should i go with a pvc type conduit? If I used metal conduit I would think the bare wire would make the entire conduit a ground then.
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:16 PM   #8
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Need help installing new service and making old service a sub panel


Since OP stated there's a panel after the meter outside (I think this is what he said??) isn't there now going to be 2 Subpanels? This seems odd to me, but then I'm not a pro.
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:46 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by sirsparksalot View Post
Since OP stated there's a panel after the meter outside (I think this is what he said??) isn't there now going to be 2 Subpanels? This seems odd to me, but then I'm not a pro.
I have the service coming into the meter base outside the addition which will feed the new Panel. The new panel will branch off to a sub panel in the older section of the home. So only 2 panels (main and sub). The old meter base that was feeding the old panel originally will be completely removed as it was old and not in the right place according to public service.

Last edited by fightermage; 09-26-2012 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:48 PM   #10
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Need help installing new service and making old service a sub panel


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Since the OP stated that there's a panel after the meter outside ...
If the new service box holds just the meter and has no "master" breaker or switch then the next box, the new breaker box, is the "main" panel.

From there a 4 wire feed went to either the old meter box or the old breaker panel.

The new main panel needs a non-stop grounding electrode conductor to the ground rods.

GEC to the second and succeeding (chronological if you prefer) grounding electrodes is required but does not have to be splice free. For example the nearest qualifying point (new panel or ground rod or GEC in between can be connected to the nearest qualifying point on what was the grounding electrode system, for the old panel, where the qualification is a complete path between new main panel and entering water pipe of adequate size which is #6 copper for service up to 100 amps and #4 copper for service up to 150? amps. GEC bonding is needed in addition to the equpment grounding conductor accompanying circuit or feed conductors even though it may look redundant.

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Last edited by AllanJ; 09-26-2012 at 09:09 PM.
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