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04-01-2014, 05:20 PM   #1
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## Need help electrifying a brewery

Hello,

My buddy and I are starting a brewery. Though i am handy in general and am comfortable doing residential electrical work, I am unsure of myself in the following:

We are looking at some industrial space with phase 3, 208 V 30 amp power. I am trying to determine if that is enough for our purposes.

We will be running several electric heating elements, a large refrigerator, an air compressor, several pumps, and miscellaneous electrical things.

In researching the adequacy of the power supply, i come across the equation which is essentially

208volts * 1.73 (square root of 3) * 30amps = 10795 watts

the heating element alone uses 5500 watts, which calls for a 30 amp breaker. if my calculations are correct then we will likely not have enough power.

I'd greatly appreciate anyones input who knows about this stuff. also any recommendations for how to educate myself on working with this would be super. Thank you.

04-01-2014, 05:34 PM   #2
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We need to know more about the equipment ?
Have a look on all equipment there should be a spec plate,
On that spec plate will be the power requirements,
Then we can do a load calculation !
Some loads like motors and pumps require a good solid supply.
As they draw a substancial load on start up !

Yes it s a lot of work !
But if you want to do it right !

Voltage X Current = Power
So 208v x 30A = 6240w.

or
Power / voltage = current.

I am guessing you will need a 200a service !
You might scrape buy with a 150a.

Last edited by dmxtothemax; 04-01-2014 at 05:46 PM.

 04-01-2014, 06:58 PM #3 Civil Engineer   Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Boston Posts: 5,679 Rewards Points: 4,938 The OPS is correct, when dealing with three phase power the total power equals voltage times current times 1.73. The post from DMX is accurate only for single phase power. 30A 3 phase service sounds really weird, I cannot imagine why anyone would provide such a small amperage service. You probably should get an electrician involved, my guess is you have a much larger than 30A service, maybe you have an old fuse box or something similar, but a 30A 3 phase service is tiny.
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04-01-2014, 08:36 PM   #4
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by DIYHero Hello, My buddy and I are starting a brewery. Though i am handy in general and am comfortable doing residential electrical work, I am unsure of myself in the following: We are looking at some industrial space with phase 3, 208 V 30 amp power. I am trying to determine if that is enough for our purposes. We will be running several electric heating elements, a large refrigerator, an air compressor, several pumps, and miscellaneous electrical things. In researching the adequacy of the power supply, i come across the equation which is essentially 208volts * 1.73 (square root of 3) * 30amps = 10795 watts the heating element alone uses 5500 watts, which calls for a 30 amp breaker. if my calculations are correct then we will likely not have enough power. I'd greatly appreciate anyones input who knows about this stuff. also any recommendations for how to educate myself on working with this would be super. Thank you.
Unless your building is from the early 1900's, there's no way you have a 30A service. Especially 3-phase. Check the numbers again and get back with us.
__________________
I am a lawyer, but not your lawyer. And who cares anyways? We're here to talk construction. This is DIY advice, not legal advice.

 04-01-2014, 10:16 PM #5 Licensed electrician   Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 10,855 Rewards Points: 1,864 Despite your other electrical experience, commercial work is going to require licenses and permits. Get a licensed contractor on board now to help,you plan this project. __________________ Answers based on the National Electrical Code. Local amendments may apply. Check with your local building officials.
 The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jim Port For This Useful Post: gmaint (04-02-2014), joecaption (04-01-2014)
 04-01-2014, 10:18 PM #6 Member     Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Brisbane, Australia. Posts: 4,320 Rewards Points: 5,598 It's probably a 30A circuit ! Not a 30A service ! So he needs to find out whats available at the main panel ? Could be a multi unit industrial facility.
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04-02-2014, 07:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by mpoulton Unless your building is from the early 1900's, there's no way you have a 30A service. Especially 3-phase. Check the numbers again and get back with us.
Indeed, the building was built in 1890. It is a multi unit facility, with 30 amps coming into the unit we are looking at. To double it, we could "rent two units" By their own admission the power supply is small. Just wanted to be sure of how small, my partner think three phase is significant, which i am finding to not be the case, just wanted to make sure.

 04-02-2014, 01:21 PM #8 Master Electrician   Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 3,851 Rewards Points: 3,958 Sounds like a commercial enterprise to me. Not a DIY undertaking. Invest in a competent electrical contractor.
 04-02-2014, 01:55 PM #9 Semi-Pro Electro-Geek   Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 3,045 Rewards Points: 2,990 Well, you have a total of 10.8kW available with that service. You might be able to get by if it's a very small operation, but it's going to be tight. You will have a real challenge with phase balancing, since you need to distribute your load evenly across all three to make effective use of the 30A per phase. I would not consider installing a brewery with such limited electrical service. If you can use gas for all heating it might be better, but honestly a 30A 120/208 service is so small that just the lighting, pumps, etc. may strain it. __________________ I am a lawyer, but not your lawyer. And who cares anyways? We're here to talk construction. This is DIY advice, not legal advice.
04-02-2014, 05:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by mpoulton Well, you have a total of 10.8kW available with that service. You might be able to get by if it's a very small operation, but it's going to be tight. You will have a real challenge with phase balancing, since you need to distribute your load evenly across all three to make effective use of the 30A per phase. I would not consider installing a brewery with such limited electrical service. If you can use gas for all heating it might be better, but honestly a 30A 120/208 service is so small that just the lighting, pumps, etc. may strain it.

Ain't no way he would run all that he wants (see OP) on a 30A supply !
2 x heating elements
Large fridge
pumps

04-02-2014, 05:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by mpoulton Well, you have a total of 10.8kW available with that service. You might be able to get by if it's a very small operation, but it's going to be tight. You will have a real challenge with phase balancing, since you need to distribute your load evenly across all three to make effective use of the 30A per phase. I would not consider installing a brewery with such limited electrical service. If you can use gas for all heating it might be better, but honestly a 30A 120/208 service is so small that just the lighting, pumps, etc. may strain it.
Running all he wants (see OP) would not work !
At least not off 30A !

We need the spec's off the equipment !
To be sure !

 04-02-2014, 07:22 PM #12 Member   Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 85 Rewards Points: 148 yea i suspected the supply wasn't enough, though wanted to make sure my calculation was sound before kiboshing an otherwise perfect space. Thank you all for your input on the matter, its been a big help to me. Also, I have expressed to my partners that we will need an electrician, for legal reasons plus i dont want to kill myself working with something ive no understanding of. That said, when i watch a sport or go to a museum, i like to know something about what im dealing with, any suggestions for how i can educate myself in this field are appreciated.
 04-03-2014, 05:47 AM #13 Member     Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Brisbane, Australia. Posts: 4,320 Rewards Points: 5,598 BASIC ELECTRICITY - VOLTAGE = AMPS X RESISTANCE OR V = I X R. And power or Watts = AMPS X VOLTS. OR W = I X V.
 04-03-2014, 06:13 AM #14 Member   Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 1,079 Rewards Points: 1,989 Best of luck , but I would not consider less than a 100 amp service . Do not forget lights & HVAC . I confess , I know just about nothing about a brewery . God bless Wyr
04-03-2014, 08:33 AM   #15
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To dmx: the equation you posted for power is correct only for DC, or single phase AC service. For three phase service, which is what the OPS indicates they have, power = V * I * 1.73, where V is the phase to phase voltage (208V in this case), and I is the current draw. The 1.73 comes in because there are three separate phases that contribute to power.

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