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Old 03-15-2008, 02:01 PM   #16
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I don't know where you went through your apprenticeship, but I was in the classroom 5 days a week for 9 and 11 weeks at a time. Pipe bending, code, fire alarm, BICSI, motor controls, photvoltaic, PLC, process control, printreading, and on the job training constituted the bulk of my education for the four year (or was it 5?) apprenticeship. I know that with the addition of two classes in labor history and construction mngmt. it counts as an associates degree.
.
I also have an A.A. from a community college and an A.S. from a trade school. In my day the IBEW apprenticeship was 1 day a week for 4 years. In the early 90's it changed to a 5 year apprenticeship with school 1 day a week, but the state still required only 4 years for a journeyman's license. My only take on that was that the union wanted cheaper labor for 1 more year to compete against the non-union shops.

Labor History? Can you say indoctrination?

By the way, as soon as I got my Master's, I got the hell out. I don't like anybody telling me what I'm worth, I will decide that myself!
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Old 03-15-2008, 02:33 PM   #17
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I never said I had a 2 year apprenticeship. I said I had 2 years of trade school for electrical construction and maintenance before I went into a 4 Year IBEW apprenticeship. I have no idea what a "residential wireman program" is, it must be something in your state. So I actually had 6 years of training (I should have been a doctor). Having been through both I believe I am able to make the comparison between them.
I knew it would upset you people that never had the trade school if I was to compare them, but it has just been my experience.
well, part of it was my misunderstanding of your post and part of it was how you wrote your post.

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I went through a 2 year trade school and then went through the IBEW apprenticeship afterward. I've worked with union and non-union. What I've found is that just a union apprenticeship without trade school is inferior to trades school and an apprenticeship. There is no way that 1 day a week in the classroom can compare to 5 days a week for 2 years for an education. The IBEW apprenticeship will make you very good at code and basic theory, but you won't be as well rounded with electronics, PLC's, drives, ect. For example I had 3 months of PLC training in trade school and 2 weeks in the apprenticeship.
when you wrote that comparison, you, obviously, did not state how long your IBEW apprenticeship was but you did compare it and consider it inferior to the 2 years of schooling at 5 days per week you did attend. If you figure a common school year of 9 months (and a few other rough numbers) (generally close for each of the options and used as a need for a common factor here), your trade school would have been 378 days while I had at least 400 days of attending school (apprenticeship) but if I were to actually count, I would not be surpirsed by something mch closer to 450 and maybe even 500 days as I attended several optional sessions.

So, based upon those numbers, the only way your trade schooling would have exceeded my apprenticeship time would be if you were in a 2 year resi program. (available at many locals around the country. not specific to my area)

Sound reasonable?

Wasn;t trying to argue against you, merely using your numbers and trying to make your post make sense. Now that you clarified your situation, it makes evenless sense.

Oh, and just in case yo uwant to argue the time (hours situation). My classes were typically 4 hours/session (some of them actually 8) . I have seen very few college courses that were 4 hour sessions.

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Old 03-15-2008, 02:36 PM   #18
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I also have an A.A. from a community college and an A.S. from a trade school. In my day the IBEW apprenticeship was 1 day a week for 4 years. In the early 90's it changed to a 5 year apprenticeship with school 1 day a week, but the state still required only 4 years for a journeyman's license. My only take on that was that the union wanted cheaper labor for 1 more year to compete against the non-union shops.

Labor History? Can you say indoctrination?

By the way, as soon as I got my Master's, I got the hell out. I don't like anybody telling me what I'm worth, I will decide that myself!
everybody tells you what you are worth. you just think it is you making that call. Try walking in and telling your employer you are worth $10M/year and see if they agree.

btw; the scale is only a minimum. You could negotiate for as high of pay as you wanted.

I do not know how old you are but I have not seen an apprenticeship program with that little attendence, ever, in my knowledge, around my area.

Maybe I can go to the old retired folks home and ask some of them. Maybe pre-'50's will show something different.

Last edited by nap; 03-15-2008 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:13 PM   #19
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well, part of it was my misunderstanding of your post and part of it was how you wrote your post.

when you wrote that comparison, you, obviously, did not state how long your IBEW apprenticeship was but you did compare it and consider it inferior to the 2 years of schooling at 5 days per week you did attend. If you figure a common school year of 9 months (and a few other rough numbers) (generally close for each of the options and used as a need for a common factor here), your trade school would have been 378 days while I had at least 400 days of attending school (apprenticeship) but if I were to actually count, I would not be surpirsed by something mch closer to 450 and maybe even 500 days as I attended several optional sessions.

So, based upon those numbers, the only way your trade schooling would have exceeded my apprenticeship time would be if you were in a 2 year resi program. (available at many locals around the country. not specific to my area)

Sound reasonable?

Wasn;t trying to argue against you, merely using your numbers and trying to make your post make sense. Now that you clarified your situation, it makes evenless sense.

Oh, and just in case yo uwant to argue the time (hours situation). My classes were typically 4 hours/session (some of them actually 8) . I have seen very few college courses that were 4 hour sessions.
I didn't think I needed to eleborate on the length of an IBEW apprenticeship, I thought that was a given.
As to classroom time, I attended a trade school not a college. We punched a timeclock when we entered and when we left (they said it was to prepare us for the real wold). It was 8 hours a day, theory in the morning and labs in the afternoon. So by my numbers: 8 hours x 5 days x 4 weeks x 18 months = 2880 hours. Thats using my ancient math, not the new math.

I was unaware that the IBEW apprenticeships had so much classroom nowdays. Like I said, in my time it was 1 day a week and the rest was "on the job training" which consisted mostly of a shovel
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:21 PM   #20
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everybody tells you what you are worth. you just think it is you making that call. Try walking in and telling your employer you are worth $10M/year and see if they agree.

.

I don't have an employer, I also thought I made that clear when I said "I got the hell out". Yes I do make the decision on how much I'm worth by how smart of a businessman I am and how hard I am willing to work. Nobody can decide how much you are worth unless you let them. If your boss won't pay you what you think your worth, then you find another job that will. When I was in the union I was not able to "negotiate my wage" like you say is possible nowdays. Is that for real? Have things really changed that much? The union electricians that I still talk to have never mentioned that one.
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Old 03-15-2008, 07:23 PM   #21
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P.S.S. I've heard that there is an appenticeship organization for nonunion shops. Textbooks, testing and all that jazz. I don't know how good that is, does anybody else?
I worked for an open shop for years that sent their apprentices to a program by the Independent Electrical Contractors (IEC). Now it is all in what you put into it, but I got to tell you, some of those guys graduated the 4 year program, and could wipe with both hands. I had several apprentices that were on my crew who would come in the day after school with all kinds of cocky knowledge. "My teacher said...". I always would send them back with a list of points to prove to their teachers. Some of the dumbest stuff I've ever heard came from the instructors there. I took a 2002 code review there. Demanded my money back. Several of us walked out of the room, that's how much bull there was. Guy didn't know if he was coming or going, let alone the code.

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Old 03-15-2008, 07:31 PM   #22
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I worked for an open shop for years that sent their apprentices to a program by the Independent Electrical Contractors (IEC). Now it is all in what you put into it, but I got to tell you, some of those guys graduated the 4 year program, and could wipe with both hands. I had several apprentices that were on my crew who would come in the day after school with all kinds of cocky knowledge. "My teacher said...". I always would send them back with a list of points to prove to their teachers. Some of the dumbest stuff I've ever heard came from the instructors there. I took a 2002 code review there. Demanded my money back. Several of us walked out of the room, that's how much bull there was. Guy didn't know if he was coming or going, let alone the code.

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Old 03-15-2008, 07:36 PM   #23
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btw; the scale is only a minimum. You could negotiate for as high of pay as you wanted.

.

I'm still wondering where the local is that allows all their brothers to negotiate their ow wages? I was always under a 5 year contract that told me what my wage was. Isn't that the whole point behing collective bargaining?
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Old 03-17-2008, 05:47 AM   #24
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Silk, collective bargaining provides you with a MINIMUM. If you think you can get more than the negotiated wage, then you are free to do so.

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Now it is all in what you put into it, but I got to tell you, some of those guys graduated the 4 year program, and could wipe with both hands.
Remember that SOMEBODY graduates last at Harvard.

It's a shame when instructors don't know the material. Not fair to the students. All of my instructors were top notch. Except for one, but that's another day.
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Old 03-17-2008, 06:23 AM   #25
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Silk, collective bargaining provides you with a MINIMUM. If you think you can get more than the negotiated wage, then you are free to do so.


Remember that SOMEBODY graduates last at Harvard.

It's a shame when instructors don't know the material. Not fair to the students. All of my instructors were top notch. Except for one, but that's another day.
It does amaze me the level of practical experience some instrustors/teachers have. Not just in this field, but ALL fields.

I graduated from a specialty trade school in 2001 for broadcasting and communications (radio and tv). I was teaching the instructors things they didn't know!
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Old 03-17-2008, 09:42 AM   #26
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I'm still wondering where the local is that allows all their brothers to negotiate their ow wages? I was always under a 5 year contract that told me what my wage was. Isn't that the whole point behing collective bargaining?
Well, I believe that would be any local in the US. In my contract there is not vacation pay and no holiday pay. I know guys that get both. There is a % over scale for foreman that is mandatory but to be an actual foremen, you have to be surpervising (I think its) 4 or 5 guys. I know guys that work by themselves that get that % all the time.

There are a few other above scale perks that I have seen out there in my local as well.

There is absolutely no requirement to pay these perks but the contactors they are with want to keep these guys so they pay them more so they will stay.
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Old 03-24-2008, 03:13 PM   #27
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I also have an A.A. from a community college and an A.S. from a trade school. In my day the IBEW apprenticeship was 1 day a week for 4 years. In the early 90's it changed to a 5 year apprenticeship with school 1 day a week, but the state still required only 4 years for a journeyman's license. My only take on that was that the union wanted cheaper labor for 1 more year to compete against the non-union shops.
No, there were many reasons why the union changed to a 5 year program. One is for the same reason many colleges have to offer basic math and english composition classes to freshmen. Kids are graduating high schools these days with absolutely zero skill in reading comprehension. Very poor study skills.

Another reason, 4 years apprenticeship was fine in 1960. Mostly simple circuits, bend pipe, electrical work was very straightfoward. Look at how many systems an electrician works with today. VFD's, computers & data, fiber optics, BMS, it's a lot more complicated. Electrical prints are second to architectual details these days.
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Labor History? Can you say indoctrination?
Indentured servant is the word you're looking for. And an apprenticeship is an indenture.

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By the way, as soon as I got my Master's, I got the hell out. I don't like anybody telling me what I'm worth, I will decide that myself!
Good for you! But the world doesn't need every electrician to have a Masters, and if they all did there wouldn't be enough jobs for them. Success and a reasonably comfortable lifestyle should be achievable by the masses without making it to the absolute top.
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Old 03-24-2008, 03:23 PM   #28
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I didn't think I needed to eleborate on the length of an IBEW apprenticeship, I thought that was a given.
As to classroom time, I attended a trade school not a college. We punched a timeclock when we entered and when we left (they said it was to prepare us for the real wold). It was 8 hours a day, theory in the morning and labs in the afternoon. So by my numbers: 8 hours x 5 days x 4 weeks x 18 months = 2880 hours. Thats using my ancient math, not the new math.

I was unaware that the IBEW apprenticeships had so much classroom nowdays. Like I said, in my time it was 1 day a week and the rest was "on the job training" which consisted mostly of a shovel
This trade school sounds more like a crash course in becoming a production electrician. Unfortunately, schooling 8 hours a day 5 days a week meant you got absolutely no practical on the job experience.

The IBEW apprenticeship couples real life on the job experience with the theory. And it costs the employee nothing.

By the time you land a job after a 2-year full time trade school, you'll start "green" and resent NOT being treated like a Mensa member, compared to other non-schooled green helpers. Because like it or not, your employer will not pay you more because you learned all kinds of neat things about programming PLCs or roping houses or bending pipe or fire alarms if the employer isn't engaged in that type of contracting.

Vice that against a 3rd year IBEW apprentice who will already be earning more, and have a 2-year headstart on his pension. And not paying a trade school loan.
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Old 03-24-2008, 03:26 PM   #29
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I worked for an open shop for years that sent their apprentices to a program by the Independent Electrical Contractors (IEC). Now it is all in what you put into it, but I got to tell you, some of those guys graduated the 4 year program, and could wipe with both hands. I had several apprentices that were on my crew who would come in the day after school with all kinds of cocky knowledge. "My teacher said...". I always would send them back with a list of points to prove to their teachers. Some of the dumbest stuff I've ever heard came from the instructors there. I took a 2002 code review there. Demanded my money back. Several of us walked out of the room, that's how much bull there was. Guy didn't know if he was coming or going, let alone the code.

InPhase277
You can tell how good their program is by the fact that they're always advertizing for instructors. In the IBEW your instructor is usually a working IBEW journeyman electrician.
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Old 03-24-2008, 06:18 PM   #30
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This trade school sounds more like a crash course in becoming a production electrician. Unfortunately, schooling 8 hours a day 5 days a week meant you got absolutely no practical on the job experience.

The IBEW apprenticeship couples real life on the job experience with the theory. And it costs the employee nothing.

By the time you land a job after a 2-year full time trade school, you'll start "green" and resent NOT being treated like a Mensa member, compared to other non-schooled green helpers. Because like it or not, your employer will not pay you more because you learned all kinds of neat things about programming PLCs or roping houses or bending pipe or fire alarms if the employer isn't engaged in that type of contracting.

Vice that against a 3rd year IBEW apprentice who will already be earning more, and have a 2-year headstart on his pension. And not paying a trade school loan.
I did both, 2 year trade school and a 4 year IBEW apprenticeship. My original point was that trade school before and apprenticeship was the best route to choose in my opinion. The local I was in, the electricians resented the trade school boys because they were always made the foreman. I wonder why?
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