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Old 12-16-2013, 01:48 PM   #16
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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Originally Posted by itsnotrequired View Post
there is also practical reasons where going beyond code can cause problems.
And I could think of just as many practical reasons why minimum code is not enough.

For example, we do work in what most would consider a very upscale neighborhood. The homes were mostly built by the developer. And on these 4,000-5,000+ square foot homes, there are 2 outdoor outlets. One on the front porch and one on the back patio. So any time you need to plug anything in outside, it requires running a 100' extension cord.

You would be surprised how many times we see semi-permanent things plugged into these outlets and extension cords (sometimes even indoor rated ones) plugged in a strung across patios or porches.

An example is one house had the outlet on the right side of the door, but the homeowner wanted one of the little plug-in water features in the bed on the left side of the door. So a cord was run in front of the door. This is a trip hazard, but it meets code. Not even an in-use cover on it.

My house on the other hand has outdoor receptacles about every 25'. There are 4 on the front, 1 on 1 side, 2 on the other side and 3 in the back. Exceeds code but makes my life easier.

Now maybe with the prevalence of CFL and LED lighting a 15A lighting circuit would be enough for an entire floor, but then again, if I want to pay to put it all on a 20A, please take my money and say Thank You!

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Old 12-16-2013, 03:56 PM   #17
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


right, sometimes it makes sense to go beyond code, nothing wrong with that. but if the electrician wiring up that giant house had no direction beyond installing the code minimum two outdoor receptacles, that electrician has done nothing wrong. fault would probably lie with the architect for not including more receptacles on the exterior. if an electrician took it upon himself to add more, he would likely be losing money (if it was his company) or get in hot water with the boss.

and not having an in-use cover isn't a code violation if the area is considered a damp location.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:14 PM   #18
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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I actually understand most of the reasons for the codes. Some are for real reasons and some are to protect the dumbest among us.

What I don't understand is why some pro's throw a fit and call some of us homeowners and DIY'ers dumb when we want to exceed the code. Do something that is electrically safe, but technically against code and you a complete dumba**.

But want to wire a house with all 12AWG and you are also a complete dumba**.

Imo, if you wire your entire house with #12, you are a dumbass, but this is just my opinionů
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:32 PM   #19
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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Imo, if you wire your entire house with #12, you are a dumbass, but this is just my opinionů
Would you refuse my money? If so, then I think you would be the dumbass.

Besides, how much difference would it really be? Based on HD price for 1,000' roles, it is $93 more per 1,000'. I don't know how many feet it takes to wire a house, but I would guess I would require at least 50% over minimum code. Can't be more than $1,000 which in today's housing market, is really a drop in the bucket.

JMHO. And a business lesson, don't spend out of your wallet when working for someone else. Just because you don't see the value, doesn't mean it isn't important to them.
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Old 12-16-2013, 05:33 PM   #20
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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Would you refuse my money? If so, then I think you would be the dumbass.

Besides, how much difference would it really be? Based on HD price for 1,000' roles, it is $93 more per 1,000'. I don't know how many feet it takes to wire a house, but I would guess I would require at least 50% over minimum code. Can't be more than $1,000 which in today's housing market, is really a drop in the bucket.

JMHO. And a business lesson, don't spend out of your wallet when working for someone else. Just because you don't see the value, doesn't mean it isn't important to them.
The labor charges would make you change your mind in a heartbeat…. and personally, I would not enjoy doing lighting with #12, not in a residential atmosphere anyway, it's just a ridiculous wiring method.

And go check out prices for 12-3 and see how you stand with your limited price increase… you can easily talk anyone out of using #12 that is sane.

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Old 12-16-2013, 05:59 PM   #21
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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An example is one house had the outlet on the right side of the door, but the homeowner wanted one of the little plug-in water features in the bed on the left side of the door. So a cord was run in front of the door. This is a trip hazard, but it meets code.
No, it doesn't. Extension cords are not to be used in place of permanent wiring.

The right thing would be a new GFCI receptacle (with appropriate cover) on the left side, within the cord length of the water feature.

But when you tell Mrs Henry Homeowner the price, most will use the extension cord anyway.

PS if you want it done your way, hire someone on a T&M basis.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:05 PM   #22
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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No, it doesn't. Extension cords are not to be used in place of permanent wiring.
hard to argue a portable, plug-connected piece of utilization equipment needs permanent wiring
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:08 PM   #23
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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But want to wire a house with all 12AWG and you are also a complete dumba**.
I would call using the wrong size wire dangerous in some cases. #12 is not expected on normal outlets, recessed can lighting, etc. The hardware is not really set up for this. You have a better chance at forming a bad connection as a result.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:54 PM   #24
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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hard to argue a portable, plug-connected piece of utilization equipment needs permanent wiring
Not hard at all, if its been plugged in (or will be) for more than 90 days.

But no one is policing it with homeowners.

With Apartment and commercial buildings, the Fire Marshal looks for them. If it looks permanent and you try claiming its temporary, the ext. cord needs to be dated.
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:14 PM   #25
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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Not hard at all, if its been plugged in (or will be) for more than 90 days.
code reference?
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:15 PM   #26
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


The AHJ is using the California Fire Code (which he has responsibility to enforce) along side of the California Electrical code.

Extension cords are temporary and not to be used as permanent wiring, per CEC (similar to NEC wording).

The California Fire Code (based on the International Fire Code) states "Temporary wiring for electrical power and lighting installations is allowedfor a period not to exceed 90 days. Temporary wiring methods shall meet the applicable provisions of the California Electrical Code".
(The IFC ref is 605.9)
So between the two, the general interpretation is any extension cord used longer than 90 days (in the same place for the same purpose) is being used to replace permanent wiring.

If you have employees covered by OSHA, the 90 day limit also comes up as a permitted exception.
The ref would be 29CFR1910.305(a)(2)(i)(B) "For a period not to exceed 90 days for Christmas decorative lighting, carnivals, and similar purposes; "

The "90 day limit" has spilled over into many, many other rules, or regs.





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Old 12-16-2013, 11:09 PM   #27
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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The California Fire Code (based on the International Fire Code) states "Temporary wiring for electrical power and lighting installations is allowedfor a period not to exceed 90 days.
So, technically I'm supposed to unplug and move my TV every 89.5 days? Not trying to be a smart A$$, but the tv has a "temporary" connection on it so what makes it different from something like an extension cord?
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Old 12-17-2013, 01:04 AM   #28
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


If the TV power cord is plugged directly into the receptacle there is no violation. But if you need an extension cord to make it reach a receptacle, it does not meet code and you should install a receptacle where it is needed. (or move TV so ext cord is not needed)
The manufacture supplied cord is not at issue. It is using the extension cord in place of permanent wiring.

PS you are in Canada, so none of this really applies, unless you have similar phrasing in your codes.

Last edited by Oso954; 12-17-2013 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:54 AM   #29
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
The AHJ is using the California Fire Code (which he has responsibility to enforce) along side of the California Electrical code.

Extension cords are temporary and not to be used as permanent wiring, per CEC (similar to NEC wording).

The California Fire Code (based on the International Fire Code) states "Temporary wiring for electrical power and lighting installations is allowedfor a period not to exceed 90 days. Temporary wiring methods shall meet the applicable provisions of the California Electrical Code".
(The IFC ref is 605.9)
So between the two, the general interpretation is any extension cord used longer than 90 days (in the same place for the same purpose) is being used to replace permanent wiring.

If you have employees covered by OSHA, the 90 day limit also comes up as a permitted exception.
The ref would be 29CFR1910.305(a)(2)(i)(B) "For a period not to exceed 90 days for Christmas decorative lighting, carnivals, and similar purposes; "

The "90 day limit" has spilled over into many, many other rules, or regs.
a fountain is sort of a gray area. if it is there year round, it would be a violation as the extension cord has now 'replaced' permanent wiring. homeowner should install a receptacle closer to the fountain, to allow it to be plugged in without the need of an extension cord.

but what if it is only out there for the summer months and stored in the winter? the only section that comes even close is 590.3(B) but that is geared toward 'holiday decorative lighting and similar purposes'. i suppose it could be argued that a fountain is a 'similar purpose' but the use of the word 'and' instead of 'or' weakens the position of the ahj, in my opinion.

don't get me wrong, i think it is a crappy installation, even if it was there for just a few months. my point was more that the electrician who did the install did nothing wrong. they aren't mindreaders who need to figure out every possible scenario where a homeowner plugs something in.
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:42 AM   #30
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NEC - what is the purpose of some of these codes ?


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So, technically I'm supposed to unplug and move my TV every 89.5 days? Not trying to be a smart A$$, but the tv has a "temporary" connection on it so what makes it different from something like an extension cord?
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If the TV power cord is plugged directly into the receptacle there is no violation. But if you need an extension cord to make it reach a receptacle, it does not meet code and you should install a receptacle where it is needed. (or move TV so ext cord is not needed)
My TV, and all other related equipment is plugged into a UPS which technically is an extension cord. It has been this way for years.

Violation?

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Originally Posted by itsnotrequired View Post
my point was more that the electrician who did the install did nothing wrong. they aren't mindreaders who need to figure out every possible scenario where a homeowner plugs something in.
I completely get that. But given that code for indoor receptacles requires them to placed so that extension cords would not have to cross a doorway, then would it not make sense for there to be a similar provision for outdoor as well? Or at least for the electrician to wire it that way?

The house I referred to with the fountain is a $500,000 house. Now I know that gets you 800 square feet in California, but where I am, that is definitely upper bracket and should not really be built to minimum code.

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