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Old 06-10-2012, 04:13 PM   #46
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NEC 2011...possible changes


IMO, the only safety part of this new rule is if the number of devices exceeds the 4 ma on the bare wire a GFCI will trip, and someone may replace the GFCI with a standard breaker.

Also, with current on the ground wire and unsuspecting individual many receive a small shock and jump into a sharp edge or hot wire.

Wiring 3W & 4W switches with this new rule will either require 4 conductor wire or feeding the power from one end of the circuit and the light from the other, so a (unused neutral) is in every switch location.

I suspect the cheap "no neutral electronic devices" will disappear from the shelves soon.

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Old 11-10-2012, 11:51 AM   #47
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NEC 2011...possible changes


I usually have a neutral in the switch box as I like to make the connections there instead of on a ladder with my arms over my head (After a rotator cuff injury and repair reminds me to do this). fewer wires in attic lights the better, less work to relocate a light fixture and fewer wires in attic space where trusses cannot be drilled.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:16 AM   #48
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NEC 2011...possible changes


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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
One link I found that has possible changes
http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=10115

Another
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=4454



Seems a Neutral (grounded conductor) may need to be included on switched loops
Still looking for more info

DRAFT:

http://www.4shared.com/file/23118541...011_Draft.html

I'm currently in school for electrical and from what they are telling us 11 code is not going into affect, everyone is going off of 08 code. They said who knows if 11 code will ever go into affect because people are questioning different articles in the code book. we may end up going straight from 08 to 14 code. I'm not sure if this is just PA statewide or all electricians but that would end up costing so much more using 3 wire on all switch loops.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:32 AM   #49
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NEC 2011...possible changes


Incorrect Jess82. 2011 NEC is in force, and there are a lot of areas that are currently using the 2011 NEC code, or some form of it in their area. Suggest if it is your instructor telling you this, to find another instructor.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:34 AM   #50
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NEC 2011...possible changes


Unless you are in a region that is not using the 2011 code.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:00 AM   #51
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NEC 2011...possible changes


Our City is just now adopting the 2011.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:10 AM   #52
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NEC 2011...possible changes


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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Incorrect Jess82. 2011 NEC is in force, and there are a lot of areas that are currently using the 2011 NEC code, or some form of it in their area. Suggest if it is your instructor telling you this, to find another instructor.
Pittsburgh isn't using 2011 code, we have the 2011 code handbook but were told from the start that most are still using 05 code and we were just informed last week that the area just adopted 08 code and that there's a possibility of skipping 11 code and going straight to 14 code since the 14 codebook will be out in August. Rosedale tech has been around since 49 so I'm hoping they know what they're talking about.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:45 AM   #53
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NEC 2011...possible changes


It may be just Pittsburgh, due to the 2014 is being cconsidered a bigger money grab, than 2011 was supposed to be.
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:12 AM   #54
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NEC 2011...possible changes


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Originally Posted by Jess82 View Post
I'm currently in school for electrical and from what they are telling us 11 code is not going into affect, everyone is going off of 08 code. They said who knows if 11 code will ever go into affect because people are questioning different articles in the code book. we may end up going straight from 08 to 14 code. I'm not sure if this is just PA statewide or all electricians but that would end up costing so much more using 3 wire on all switch loops.
Here is a state by state map of NEC adoption.

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Old 02-19-2013, 08:38 AM   #55
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NEC 2011...possible changes


First of all. The NEC is written by the National Fire Protection Association. In this modern day existence, there is still life and property destroyed due to electrocution or fire. A good percentage of property loss is due to fire, and a good percentage if not most of that is a result of an electrical problem. That said, Yes it is in fact necessary to include a neutral(grounded) conductor to all switch boxes. As mentioned this is for mainly the use of occupancy sensors, which are required in any new work or upgrades here in California to meet the ENERGY EFFICIENCY STANDARDS that are part of the building code here.
To use the ground wire as a neutral turns that conductor into a current carrying conductor which in turn takes the safety away from the equipment grounding conductor. The reason is the equipment grounding conductor is like a vacant path for the current to travel in the event of a fault. The use as a current carrying conductor, negates the potential free nature of the equipment ground. AND if the house has a sub panel, which is required to be fed with 4 conductors,(L1, L2, N, G) with the neutral isolated from the equipment ground, you disable that separation also. The neutral and the ground only connect at the service entrance to the dwelling. This is where your grounding electrode conductor(s), neutral, equipment and main bonding jumpers, equipment grounding conductors, and grounded service conductor all tie together. The grounded service conductor is grounded at the pole side and at the dwellings as part of the utilities safety as it helps to limit the voltage in the event of a major fault or failure due to some event beyond their control that would possibly be sent into your home if hooked up otherwise. I WOULD HAVE TO VERIFY THIS, but the only time a Neutral and Ground was allowed to be on the same conductor in recent history was if the circuit originated at the service entrance. And that may have been disallowed at this point. I never use a 2-G cable opting for a 3-G as the cost is negligable, and eliminates the issue. And appliances are now hooked up with 4 wire pigtails(ranges, dryers, 220 volt utilization equipment).
As far as outlets being spaced maximum of 12 feet along any unbroken plane, it is entirely a safety issue and nothing else. You see in order for a device to be approved as safe for public use by the process we use in the USA, which is Underwriters Labratory, as far as consumer devices(TV,Stereo,Lamps, consumer electronics of all types actually)pretty much anything that will be cord connected,EXCEPT kitchen appliances, will have a 6 foot cord to connect that device to power. They can be longer, but manufacturing being what it is all you get is the required minimum and coincidentally, that just so happens to work out so that there is no extension cord required. Extension cords are a problem because people either overload them, run them under carpet, put them in an area of traffic, pinch them under say a sofa leg, etc, which leads to failure, then leads to electrocution or fire which results in loss of life or property.
It is stated in the NEC that the electrical system shall be installed with a margain of extra capacity to allow for upgrades as technology changes in the future. Yes this is a grey area between design and safety, but it is in the publics best interest and any one that moans over these things, well, do it your way, it will work, but when the unfortunate time comes that a properly installed system would protect you, is it really worth the few dollars to maybe it might protect you and if it doesn't, well, charred human remains, be it yours, your spouse or your children or other friends or loved ones, are a horrible things to see. I can only imagine what it would be like to get that way. And a fire in a house, is indiscriminate, doesn't care who, what, or why, it consumes everything it possibly can.
In closing, I suppose when people stop dying, houses and businesses quit burning down, technology ceases to advance, then we may see the NEC stop being revised every 3 years. Who knows, one day all the possible factors may be accounted for and there will be no changes. Ha ha ha Really.
PS Arc Fault Circuit Interuptors are required on outlets in bedrooms, this means plugs and lights,as well as Living Rooms, Dining Rooms, Bathrooms, Hallways, dens, pantries, pretty much all electrical circuits, and I believe the laundry and kitchen were holdouts in the last issue. I recieved an update from the NFPA recently where they are considering changing this, so just about all the electrical outlets in a dwelling will be required to be AFCI protected. But I will verify and post as info is available.
I know, I can hear the moaning already, but the same thing occured when GFI's were introduced, and now they are common. Realistically, I couldn't begin to estimate the number of lives they have saved. Look at AFCI's as the same benefit for your property.
Final point, tamper proof is for all the little ones running around that go from crawling to vroom. And specifically the tendency the tykes have to putting objects just about anywhere you can imagine. Personally, back in 1964 when cord caps did not include a handle area I personally used one of my moms good spoons to try to pry a plug from a tight receptalcle when 5 year old tugging did not pull the plug from whatever it was I was not supposed to be messing with from the wall. I was very lucky as when I shoved that spoon between the plug and receptacle it contacted both prongs and pow I had myself a little arcflash, arcweld, knocked on my proverbial in trouble now kiester. An AFCI would have tripped offline far quicker than the fuse that had to pop. And not just time but also the type of arc is read by the device. They are a good thing for us even though you don't know it yet. And they will get cheaper as use increases. Just like anything but energy.
I will update info as I either verify or recieve it.
Consider this. Autos in the USA were not equipped with seatbelts until I believe the middle 60's. I remember my dad installing them on our old Rambler wagon. How many of you put your children in the car and do not buckle them into either a car seat, a booster seat, or if big enough a seatbelt alone. We do it to protect those which we cherish. I bet you wouldn't blink twice about a few bucks for that extra fancy paint or carpet. Think about it. Other than the natural gas, the only thing in your house capable of destroying your and all you know is the electrical potential available for our convenience. Think about it.
I will verify my facts and issue a note if I skipped or misquoted an item. This info is pre coffee couldn't sleep recalled so I will verify and post if different...

Last edited by dudleydoright; 02-19-2013 at 09:05 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-14-2013, 05:40 PM   #56
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NEC 2011...possible changes


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i don't see the point as far as making that code. It has nothing to do with safety. Although it think its retarded not to do it that way. I hate when people take power to the lights. I would hate to see that become code though, because there is a time and place for doing it that way
this could however be a safety precaution, as more dimmer switches and lighting controllers require a neutral, and numerous homeowners enjoy doing their own work, then if the required wires are not already there, the homeowner may make modifications that are not correct and/or meet code.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:31 PM   #57
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this could however be a safety precaution, as more dimmer switches and lighting controllers require a neutral, and numerous homeowners enjoy doing their own work, then if the required wires are not already there, the homeowner may make modifications that are not correct and/or meet code.
I believe you have hit the nail on the head here. What I believe many fail to recognize is that there are at least two aspects of safety: 1) the inherent safety of the system, and 2) how people use the system that could introduce further safety considerations.

There is nothing INHERENTLY more safe about having appliance circuits 18" over a kitchen counter...the electrical system, itself is equally safe whether these circuits are there or not there. But, someone has decided (possibly correctly) that enough people will want to use appliances on countertops and will do so in an unsafe manner if these circuits are not present.

The neutral-in-every-box is another example. No, the system itself is no more safe with, or without the neutral. But someone has apparently decided that enough people will want to use these new types of devices requiring neutrals and will do so in an unsafe manner if the neutrals are not present.

While one could argue that the code should not be predicated on how one MAY use the system, or what one MIGHT do in the future, this horse has already left the barn many code generations ago.
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Old 10-27-2013, 03:02 PM   #58
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NEC 2011...possible changes


Motion Sensing Switches and dimmers that do not need to neutral need to send a trickle of current through the load when in the "Off" state in order to power the electronics inside. This means that they are only compatible with incandescent lamps and autotransformer ballasts. Even though Phillips makes a 60 watt Halogena lamp that produces as much light as an old style 100 watt incandescent lamp, having to install one on the same circuit as LED or electronic fluorescent lamps is a pain in the arse.

I have tried installing "dimmer compatible" compact fluorescent refit lamps downstream of a motion sensing switch that does not need a neutral and the lamps flicker and flash like crazy. The "dimmer compatible" CFrLs have a 1 watt ballast resistor that allows a dimmer to draw a trickle of current when in the "off" state but it is not enough to run a motion sensing switch that does require the neutral even if there are 2 "dimmer compatible" CFrLs on it.
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Old 10-27-2013, 04:48 PM   #59
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NEC 2011...possible changes


Am I the only one who thinks we should just forget the NEC and start wrapping ourselves in this stuff?
Then we can just sit in the middle of the room and watch reruns of the brady bunch,making sure of course the tv is plugged into a tamper resistant outlet with an in use cover and fed by an afci circuit breaker?
Just saying!
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:20 AM   #60
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NEC 2011...possible changes


I believe the new code states that light circuits using multiple switches, ie 3-4-3 way setups are exempt from the neutral at the switch location. Also there is available 12-2-2-g and 14-2-2-g which is still quite a bit more compared to what you get but as with anything it will eventually drop in price. Remember when led bulbs were 30 and 40 dollars and more. . So imho the code does do what it is supposed to do. I know we electricians are just about the most God gifted rubes on the rock when it comes to smarts but, and in all seriousness, it isn't us that the code has to protect. It is like a blueprint for a submarine. Without it all it might do is sink. Wouldn't be much of a technological achievement if it couldn't resurface. Did a house recently where my neighbor passed, and he had had a new service installed and the hm, electrician he hired to change it tied in the old original(2 of) circuits with a splice and extension. Four number 12 splices in a 1/2 inch lb. And this is on the old original version of non metallic cable, circa right after k&t somewhere during ww2. It has one normally insulated conductor, and one that is basically bare inside an overall jacket. A lot of that around here in my area and only place I have ever seen it. As far as code being a bit intrusive, well, as I have and will continue to point out, the day we have zero lives lost, and $0in lost property, and technology has gone as far advanced as it possibly can, then I imagine the code will no longer be necessary. But until then, if you don't think it is necessary or can't bear to follow the necessary rules, well, I hear wallfart is always looking for a few good folks. Just as the IBEW was formed at the advent of our countries emergence into the electrical age because the chances of going to work that day as an electrician and being killed were extremely high, due to no common knowledge and no safety coordination. I have seen 480 control box covers blown at high velocity and knocking out power 2 substations back from dust that settled on the top edge of a contactor in an area that has heavy marine moisture in the morning hours, enough to create a fault path creating a hard short phase to phase. And I have been suited up inside live 4160 equipment when my numb nut partner that was there specifically to hand me parts as I needed them casually miss my multigloved hand with a 3/8 inch nut when I reached back for it and it went tink tink down into the live section below the one I was residing in at the time. I thank the good man upstairs I did not become part of the high velocity molten metal and schrapnel that would have resulted had that nut tinked in the wrong place. When violet folks(maroons, oops, morons,) cease to inhabit the rock, well, then also maybe we won't need the code. My son has asked me to pass on some of my skilllllllls as he is upgrading(he as in dad)his pre ww2 era dwelling and the first thing I did was break out the code book and begin to show him how and why it is what it is, by taking it and walking out to the pole and following it down to the house. Initial points, grounding, bonding, ampacity, fill, approval, listed and labeled. He has bought a couple books and the always refer you to the code without rhyme or reason for why. I would bet that by the 1st of the year he will be more knowledgeable than many so called experts as far as the wiring of a house according to the current requirements is concerned. But then again, as a youngster, he went with me on quite a few weekend or holiday from school quickees where a business, house, or some other unimaginable mishap had occurred. And he is a trained fire fighter and has seen the results of just a little spark that could.

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