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Old 12-06-2011, 09:24 AM   #31
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NEC 2011...possible changes


So let's say "hypothetically" that you replace a breaker with a AFCI breaker in an existing structure. When power is restored the breaker is immediately tripped. Are you allowed to continue use of the standard breaker or do you have to find and isolate the arc fault?

One other question, in a circuit panel should grounds and neutral both be inserted into the neutral bar? The previous owner did it this way does this need to be corrected?
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Last edited by ChrisDIY; 12-06-2011 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:15 PM   #32
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Not to contradict myself, but having reviewed some of the logic behind the change to require neutral @ the switch I can see it as a safety issue. Apparently people are using ground as the neutral if there's no neutral, and that's not what it's there for. So yes, running neutral to the switch is a safety issue.
OK well ive seen many people use a ground wire as traveler between 3 way switches when theres only 2 conductors and a ground wire present,which we all know isnt right.
So should somebody create a 14/4 series of wire just in case its ever needed down the road?
That way you have your 2 travelers/1 common/1 neutral and 1 ground?
How about thermostat wiring,should we just start running 20 conductors to a thermostat in case something new comes along?
I mean really if those guys installing boilers in peoples houses 100 years ago would have just thought ahead and run atleast 10 conductors in the walls for future low voltage needs things would be so much simpler!
I say we just do away with electricity and wrap ourselves in bubble wrap before somebody hurts themselves!
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Old 12-31-2011, 12:53 PM   #33
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So should somebody create a 14/4 series of wire just in case its ever needed down the road?
That way you have your 2 travelers/1 common/1 neutral and 1 ground?
12/4, 14/4, 12/2/2 and 14/2/2 wire already exist.

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCata...6&desc=CU-NM-B
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Old 12-31-2011, 02:19 PM   #34
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12/4, 14/4, 12/2/2 and 14/2/2 wire already exist.

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCata...6&desc=CU-NM-B
After all these years ive never seen it
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:42 PM   #35
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After all these years ive never seen it
Not super common yet but sooner or later it will become more common when the codes do take in effects in quite few states.

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Old 01-09-2012, 10:51 AM   #36
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But there's the problem. Should the NEC dictate what would be nice in the future, or what's safe today?

There have been times I'd have done the happy dance if a circuit was 20A vs. 15, but does that mean all circuits should be 20A now? Nope. 15 is still fine in most cases. Other times I wish every room was on it's own circuit, but again, not a safety issue. Or that switched outlets were run such that every outlet had a switched and unswitched part. Or that... But the NEC should be about safety, not ideal design.
You should come to my place, 6' outlet to outlet. 20a circuits and every room is a minimum of 2 circuits (1 lighting 1 outlets) except the Kitchen which has 5, dishwasher/disposal, lighting, and outlets are balanced based on devices so Fridge, Microwave and small appliance counter are all on a different circuit. I wanted it done my way, the overkill way.
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:56 AM   #37
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But there's the problem. Should the NEC dictate what would be nice in the future, or what's safe today?
National Electrical Code is about safety NOT convenience.
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:01 AM   #38
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National Electrical Code is about safety NOT convenience.
Or, at least, it should be. And not just safety, but ELECTRICAL safety. Unfortunately, this does not always appear to me to be the case. I would argue that any code requiring a light be installed in a room has nothing to do with ELECTRICAL safey, but convenience and, possibly, personal safety. The inherent safety of the electrical system, itelf, is not compromised by lack of a light, nor is it increased by inclusion of such a light (if anything, it introduces additional failure modes).

There is also a distinction to be made between the inherent electical safety of the as-installed system, and the electrical safety as a result of how the installed system is used or likely upgraded. Use or minimization of extension cords are related to electrical safety, but are purely a consequence of how people USE the electrical system.

Ensuring that an electrical system is capable of later recieving certain types of electrical devices (smart switches, for example) is does NOT affect the safety of the system AS INSTALLED, but could affected the electrical safety in the future, depending on how people are likely to modify the system.
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Old 02-04-2012, 04:45 PM   #39
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I always run power to the ceiling lamp, three conductor to the switch, then to the receptacle. This allow you to do whatever you want later. I always install deep box's so box fill will not be an issue.
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:24 AM   #40
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Or, at least, it should be. And not just safety, but ELECTRICAL safety. Unfortunately, this does not always appear to me to be the case. I would argue that any code requiring a light be installed in a room has nothing to do with ELECTRICAL safey, but convenience and, possibly, personal safety. The inherent safety of the electrical system, itelf, is not compromised by lack of a light, nor is it increased by inclusion of such a light (if anything, it introduces additional failure modes).

There is also a distinction to be made between the inherent electical safety of the as-installed system, and the electrical safety as a result of how the installed system is used or likely upgraded. Use or minimization of extension cords are related to electrical safety, but are purely a consequence of how people USE the electrical system.

Ensuring that an electrical system is capable of later recieving certain types of electrical devices (smart switches, for example) is does NOT affect the safety of the system AS INSTALLED, but could affected the electrical safety in the future, depending on how people are likely to modify the system.
Its all about preventing fire. Every code in the NEC is designed to do just that. That's why the NFPA is behind it and publishes it. That does not mean, however, DIYers like ourselves will always do things in adherence with the code.

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Old 02-06-2012, 07:47 AM   #41
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Its all about preventing fire. Every code in the NEC is designed to do just that. That's why the NFPA is behind it and publishes it. That does not mean, however, DIYers like ourselves will always do things in adherence with the code.
Tamper proof plugs,gfi's,in use plug covers.............,what do these things have to do with fire prevention?
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:11 AM   #42
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Tamper proof plugs,gfi's,in use plug covers.............,what do these things have to do with fire prevention?
Actually they do.

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Old 04-10-2012, 01:55 PM   #43
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Its all about preventing fire. Every code in the NEC is designed to do just that. That's why the NFPA is behind it and publishes it. That does not mean, however, DIYers like ourselves will always do things in adherence with the code.
it isn't just fire. from 90.1(A):

"The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity"

fire is certainly a hazard but so are shocks, tripping over cords, etc. that is why the code addresses items such as tamper-resistant receptacles, illumination around electrical equipment cannot be controlled by automatic means only, etc.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:51 AM   #44
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NEC 2011...possible changes


in the main service panel the grounds and neutrals can be on the same bus bar.
In subseguent sub panels the ground and neutral should be seperated onto seperate bus bars.
Correct me if I am wrong but that seems to be the code. NEC
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:58 AM   #45
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in the main service panel the grounds and neutrals can be on the same bus bar.
In subseguent sub panels the ground and neutral should be seperated onto seperate bus bars.
Correct me if I am wrong but that seems to be the code. NEC
Sorta, as long as the main panel is also the main disconnecting means also.

Say you had a outside disconnect at your house between the meter and main panel, then you would attach your big ground wire to your rods, water pipe, etc there and run 4 wires to the main panel and separate the grounds and neutrals onto their own buss bars.

Got it?
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