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-   -   NEC 2011...possible changes (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/nec-2011-possible-changes-79406/)

Scuba_Dave 08-22-2010 08:11 PM

NEC 2011...possible changes
 
One link I found that has possible changes
http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=10115

Another
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=4454

Quote:

New: 404.2(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads
A new subdivision will require a grounded conductor to be provided to switch locations that control lighting, unless the wiring is installed in a raceway or the physical construction of the building allows for relative ease of future addition of other conductors
Seems a Neutral (grounded conductor) may need to be included on switched loops
Still looking for more info

DRAFT:

http://www.4shared.com/file/23118541...011_Draft.html

Scuba_Dave 08-22-2010 08:52 PM

Maybe I'm just not thinking of other possibilities
But it seems as if this just eliminates using -2 wire for a switched loop
Instead you will need to install -3 wire
And cap it at both sides ?
Connect it on the "hot" side & cap it where not needed ?
I've already been running hot feed to the switch instead of the lights

frenchelectrican 08-23-2010 01:36 AM

Dave.,

There are few running will come on 2011 code cycle but keep in your mind not all states will adpot the new code right away so it will give them a running time to catch up

Myself and couple other electricians will be more than glad to fill you in with upcomming change.

Dave I may ask you to make a request at later date to make subparts sections so the readers can understand the highlighted changes what it will affect the way code is written.

As far for the grounded (Netural ) conductor at the switch box that I confirmed that they will enforced due many of the motion sensor and timers they useally required a netural to get the electronic device to function properly.

That will affect the fill capaity in the switch box so plan it ahead with it.

I will get few more info and type it up as soon I get few direct answer with the update codes.

Merci.
Marc

Scuba_Dave 08-23-2010 08:18 AM

Here in MA they seem to update the new code on Jan 1st
They did that for the NEC 2008
So if I'm running wire I try to meet the next code whenever possible

jimmy21 09-09-2010 07:48 PM

i don't see the point as far as making that code. It has nothing to do with safety. Although it think its retarded not to do it that way. I hate when people take power to the lights. I would hate to see that become code though, because there is a time and place for doing it that way

nap 09-09-2010 09:04 PM

it's kind of funny because as it is, when using a ferrous metal conduit , that was typically required (300.20(A)) but there was an exception specifically for switch legs.

The only justification I can see is what Marc stated as it being used in the box. It' a shame they cannot allow an electrician to install what is required as needed and not be told to install it because it might be needed in the future. Not saying it is a bad ides but this removes the NEC from being a safety manual and enforcing design requirements that are not safety based concerns.

Gigs 10-05-2010 11:55 AM

If people are using grounds as a neutral for these switchbox devices installed later, then there could be a safety justification.

How many homeowners are going to pull a new wire to install their new night-light switch that the guy at Lowes sold them?

I know you can't predict every dangerous thing someone might try, but I can see where it's coming from.

Michael Thomas 10-05-2010 11:57 AM

One issue is the retrofit of dimmers, timers and sensor controlled switches that require a neutral.

oberkc 10-06-2010 02:07 PM

Those of us involved in home automation (insteon, UPB) would VERY MUCH appreciate the neutral (grounded conductor) at each switch box. This would avoid much rewiring and repurposing of existing wires. Even some of the nicer lutron switches require this. I wonder how many folks are using the bare-copper ground as a neutral when there is no actual white, neutral wire.

Quote:

Not saying it is a bad ides but this removes the NEC from being a safety manual and enforcing design requirements that are not safety based concerns.
I make no claims to being a code expert, but I would argue that the code already addresses convenience and design issues. Does it not already dictate numbers of outlets (even if not required by homeowner)?

Scuba_Dave 10-06-2010 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oberkc (Post 512441)
I make no claims to being a code expert, but I would argue that the code already addresses convenience and design issues. Does it not already dictate numbers of outlets (even if not required by homeowner)?

I'd hardly consider a required outlet every 12' a design issue or for convenience
I install my outlets every 6' or less

nap 10-06-2010 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oberkc (Post 512441)


I make no claims to being a code expert, but I would argue that the code already addresses convenience and design issues. Does it not already dictate numbers of outlets (even if not required by homeowner)?

that is not a matter of convenience. It is safety issue. It is to cause a recep to be within reach of the typical lamp of appliance without the need for using an extension cord.

I understand your point but it just isn't the same in my mind.


Quote:

Those of us involved in home automation (insteon, UPB) would VERY MUCH appreciate the neutral (grounded conductor) at each switch box.
then you should be involved with the design of the home and this should be spec'd. I would like to see a lot of things done differently but unless I can justify the legal use of the system as it is causes a safety hazard, the code does not belong in the discussion.

oberkc 10-06-2010 03:06 PM

Quote:

that is not a matter of convenience. It is safety issue. It is to cause a recep to be within reach of the typical lamp of appliance without the need for using an extension cord.
Fair point. I suspect we will continue to have a different opinion about such things. How about:

If you need receptacles to be within reach of a lamp outlet, "then you should be involved with the design of the home and this should be spec'd"? This argument is based on assumptions about what is the predominant use for outlets by the normal individual.

I see it as foregone conclusion that programmable lighting control becomes commonplace in not-too-distant future houses for normal individuals. (I see no reason why we should assume that the common mechanical relay continues to be the standard for the indefinite future.) In order for this to be installed safely, they require a neutral. I just see it as technological progression of safe electrical design for housing.

deepseathomas 10-14-2010 09:35 PM

Scuba Dave
 
Dave any ideas on the pigtail connection for aluminun to copper for wall out let? thomas


Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave (Post 489686)
One link I found that has possible changes
http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=10115

Another
http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=4454



Seems a Neutral (grounded conductor) may need to be included on switched loops
Still looking for more info

DRAFT:

http://www.4shared.com/file/23118541...011_Draft.html


ChrisDIY 11-29-2010 09:25 AM

...not being an electrician I always thought neutral was required? If not used had to be tied in back of box or is this something different?

Pistol Pete 11-29-2010 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy21 (Post 498578)
I hate when people take power to the lights. I would hate to see that become code though, because there is a time and place for doing it that way

As a homeowner and DIYer I think it's very convenient to have a hot wire to the outlet and a switch leg, rather than the other way. I wonder why Jimmy21 doesn't like it this way?

Here are three times having a hot at the outlet was a good thing:
1. I installed a ceiling fan over the dining room table. I hooked the hot to the fan so it runs using the pull-chain, and I hooked up the lights using the switch leg, into which I installed a dimmer. Everything works just like I like it, and I didn't have to do any wiring.

2. The bedroom had a switched outlet for a lamp, but I wanted a ceiling light fixture. I removed the switch leg from the wall plug and hooked the hot line so it was always live, Then I went up to the attic and ran a hot line from another ceiling light to a new box in the bedroom ceiling, and used the wiring from the wall switch as a switch leg for my new ceiling light.

3. The living room had a switched outlet where I needed both a switched and an always-on outlet. I broke off the tabs and hooked the hot line to the top receptacle, and used the switch leg to the bottom half of the duplex plug. Again, just what I needed with no wiring changes at all.

So what's the down-side?


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