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Old 09-06-2010, 10:15 PM   #1
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I had an electrician come out to take a look at the circuit that has two outdoor outlets on it and also pool equipment, since the GFCI was tripping on the circuit, rendering the pool pumps useless, which means I can't use my pool right now.

I drew a diagram. The top part is the existing wiring. The breaker in the service panel is a normal breaker, but the first receptacle on it is GFCI, so everything downstream from it is protected, including the two pool pumps. Although I'll have to go out there and double-check that this is how the wires are connecting everything, I am pretty certain that this is correct. The lower part of the picture is what I plan to do with the wiring to fix the problem.



Although the system has been maintained somewhat, a lot of things have fallen into disrepair recently. The cover off the second outlet was torn off (which was actually why I thought the GFCI in the first outlet was tripping -- I was expecting to only have to pay him to replace the second receptacle with the broken cover... doh!) The electrician felt the first receptacle -- the one with the GFCI -- had gone bad as well. He said it was tripping because it was "too old." He wanted to gut the hole thing -- removing the first receptacle entirely, running the second receptacle off a GFCI breaker (green breaker) that would be placed in the pool controller, which has spots for breakers, and running the pumps off of AFCI breakers (in red), also to be placed in the pool controller.

Unfortunately, he wanted about $5,000 to do the work, and I am a noobie electrician (I've taken some classes on residential wiring, NEC, etc.) wanting some experience, so I might as well give it a shot myself. How does my diagram look? Do I have everything right, or is this still not code-compliant?

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Old 09-06-2010, 10:46 PM   #2
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As I understand under NEC 2008 pool pumps need to be GFCI protected
Is the pool controller a sub-panel ?
Or some panel from pool Mfg ?

Have you tried running certain loads/pumps to see what is causing it to trip ?

$5000 seems high, but we really do not know what he was going to do

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Old 09-06-2010, 11:10 PM   #3
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As I understand under NEC 2008 pool pumps need to be GFCI protected
Thanks. I'll check my 2008 NEC book and make those GFCI breakers if that is the case.

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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Is the pool controller a sub-panel ?
Or some panel from pool Mfg ?
It's a controller for the pumps (you can set the timers to make the pumps turn on and off at certain times), but also has slots where you can install breakers.

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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Have you tried running certain loads/pumps to see what is causing it to trip ?
I haven't, but it would seem to me as though, with the second receptacle's cover being broken off that the circuit is in such disrepair that it would possibly (even probably) make exact diagnosis impossible.

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$5000 seems high, but we really do not know what he was going to do
He was not going to retrench or even run new wires for the runs, only doing what was necessary to change the wiring up.
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:15 AM   #4
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pool light has to be gfci.
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:33 AM   #5
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I do not know what exsting conductor you have in there but the way it set up you allready have one red flag came up so far is the pool luminaires is that on 120 volt or 12 volt luminaire ?? and it must have RCD { GFCI } protection.

Second thing you should keep the pool luminaire circuit seperated from any other general circuits { trust us on this part otherwise it will haunt ya if not done in correct way } and make sure you have good bonding conductor there that is very circital item you will need.

You will need to read art 680 IIRC that will cover very well with pool system plus couple other spots { Speedy Pete or other will confirm this one }

AFCI ?? ditch them they just don't have correct GFCI protection setting IIRC they are set about 30ma for GFCI level if you have combo verison so that not worth it.

get one with real GFCI breakers they will have correct setting for personal protection.

5,000 Dollars ?? that comment make me wondering did you check with couple other electrician as well and be honest if you are a future electrician tell them and maybe they will work out something and this is not a basic course on the pool system there are a bit of code to cover.

Merci.
Marc
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:43 AM   #6
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pool light has to be gfci.
Yeah, it will be on the GFCI (green) breaker.

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Second thing you should keep the pool luminaire circuit seperated from any other general circuits { trust us on this part otherwise it will haunt ya if not done in correct way } and make sure you have good bonding conductor there that is very circital item you will need.
I'll take your word for it and check exactly what is hidden away in the conduit. I am good at figuring stuff out when I can see it, but I definitely have some work to do in regards to checking exactly how the circuits are wired.

And yes, Swimming Pools are 680. I'll probably be reading 680 tomorrow.

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Old 09-07-2010, 08:45 AM   #7
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Yeah...for $5k I could replace all the wiring, both pumps & probably the controller
....and still make $$

Busman - discussion moved:
Discussion on Rewiring cost
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:12 PM   #8
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Just got done reading 680. Here are my questions/comments.



680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means. One or more means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors shall be provided for all utilization equipment other than lighting. Each means shall be readily accessible and within sight from its equipment and shall be located at least 5 ft horizontally from the inside walls of the pool...

Question #1: My pumps do not currently have manual disconnects other than the circuit breakers, which are currently in the garage, but after the changes, they will be 3 ft away, in the pump control panel. Is that sufficient? If not, should I put a disconnect for each of the two pumps, or should I just install a single disconnect for the pump control panel?

---------------------------------------

680.22(B) says GFCI is required on the pool pumps, although I must admit that I don't understand why it is limited to pumps on 120V, 10 or 15A circuits.

---------------------------------------

680.23 Underwater Luminaires. This section covers all luminaires installed below the normal water level of the pool.
(F) Branch Circuit Wiring.
(3) Conductors. Conductors on the load side of a ground-fault circuit interrupter or of a transformer, used to comply with the provisions of 680.23(A)(8), shall not occupy raceways, boxes, or enclosures containing other conductors unless one of the following conditions applies:
(1) The other conductors are protected by ground-fault circuit interrupters.
(2) The other conductors are grounding conductors.
(3) The other conductors are supply conductors to a feed-through-type ground-fault circuit interrupter.
(4) Ground-fault circuit interrupters shall be permitted in a panelboard that contains circuits protected by other than ground-fault circuit interrupters.


Question #2. Although I plan on putting GFCI breakers on the pumps and maybe a GFCI breaker on the receptacle (as opposed to simply a GFCI-type receptacle,) should I put the pool light's wiring in separate conduit, even if all of the other wires would be on GFCI breakers?

Question #3. I couldn't help but to notice that it seemed as though this "no mixing GFCI-protected conductors with non-GFCI conductors in the same conduit" requirement was only applicable when it came to luminaires, and I couldn't find any text in the GFCI section (210.8) claiming that this was required for typical GFCI use. Is this a special case, or is it general practice that GFCI and non-GFCI conductors are kept separate?



PS: I'm hoping to get my hands on a digital camera soon in order to show everyone exactly what we're talking about here. I realize that sometimes text without pictures is a little hard to deal with.

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Old 09-09-2010, 10:08 PM   #9
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Noob.,

Quote:
680.22(B) says GFCI is required on the pool pumps, although I must admit that I don't understand why it is limited to pumps on 120V, 10 or 15A circuits.
If you are on 2005 or before NEC code cycle yeah but once you land in to 2008 NEC code they change a bit on that one so ALL the pump circuit must have RCD { GFCI } reguardless of voltage { I know many peoples have 240 volts pumps they will not be happy when they see that code and the 2 Pole RCD are not cheap they run anywhere from 30 to 100 }

And Also they change a bit with bonding metholds as well { few Electricians were not too thrilled or confused with the changes all they say what the heck ?? }}

As far for disconnect on the pump do you have hardwired or twistlockers ??

If hardwired it must have disconnect switch or breaker and IT must able to lock out with padlock or other means.

The twistlockers it kinda like toss up depending on the local codes and the AJH call for it .

Merci.
Marc

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