Multiple Sub Panel Installation - Electrical - Page 2 - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-30-2007, 01:15 PM   #16
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


You are probably referring to UF cable. In most cases it can be used & routed inside PVC however most professionals would pull separate THHN/THWN conductors. Also it can be a pain to pull UF cable in conduit but it can be done.

In some cases, like some motor applications the ground must be insulated which is not the case w/ UF cable & could not be used.

Advertisement

Mike13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2007, 01:20 PM   #17
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


I have done this for many years including stack in shakes ,kfc's ,Abby's etc. all passed code with flying colors. Now i tried to put on hear after my last post that it might not be code but it wasn't letting it post. But seriously most guys that's done this for years wouldn't sweet this. Now if it seriously is scarring you then pull it out and go spend some money and get new wire. But I'll tell you what. About 2 months ago i re barred a cable for a garage so he could run a bigger service. His old wire was good old standard romex barred directly in the ground. After telling him how bad that is he told me its been there for 8 years and it still looked new. So to sum it up he must not be rich or he would have change his panel out. He already bout the wire and for a working man wire is expensive. you could argue with me all day but from my experience I'll tell you PVC dose prevent Walter. I don't care what some pencil pusher trying to get his code in the books say. To this day i work with a lot of under ground and have yet had a wet mouse in buildings that's been there for 40 and 50 years. Now if i was putting it in no i wouldn't of bout that kind of wire how ever if it was putting it on my house and that was the wire i already had. I would use it. Now if you want me to play businessman electrician then pull it out call a electrician and pay him $90 dollars an hour then "i don't know where you live" but get all the permits needed then after he juiced you for 8 hours call in the inspector to inspect it and the end result you still have power to the same place.
Drennen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2007, 03:39 PM   #18
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 1,802
Rewards Points: 1,000
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drennen View Post
I have done this for many years including stack in shakes ,kfc's ,Abby's etc. all passed code with flying colors. Now i tried to put on hear after my last post that it might not be code but it wasn't letting it post. But seriously most guys that's done this for years wouldn't sweet this. Now if it seriously is scarring you then pull it out and go spend some money and get new wire. But I'll tell you what. About 2 months ago i re barred a cable for a garage so he could run a bigger service. His old wire was good old standard romex barred directly in the ground. After telling him how bad that is he told me its been there for 8 years and it still looked new. So to sum it up he must not be rich or he would have change his panel out. He already bout the wire and for a working man wire is expensive. you could argue with me all day but from my experience I'll tell you PVC dose prevent Walter. I don't care what some pencil pusher trying to get his code in the books say. To this day i work with a lot of under ground and have yet had a wet mouse in buildings that's been there for 40 and 50 years. Now if i was putting it in no i wouldn't of bout that kind of wire how ever if it was putting it on my house and that was the wire i already had. I would use it. Now if you want me to play businessman electrician then pull it out call a electrician and pay him $90 dollars an hour then "i don't know where you live" but get all the permits needed then after he juiced you for 8 hours call in the inspector to inspect it and the end result you still have power to the same place.
What??
jerryh3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2007, 05:30 PM   #19
Electrician philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 838
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


Quote:
Originally Posted by tribe_fan View Post
Andy - can "outdoor' romex ( sorry I forget the correct term, but the kind rated for direct burial) be placed inside PVC for added protection in an outdoor environment ?

I'm referring specifically to 12 and 10, I've never seen it in higher sizes.

I looked at other web sites, and this topic get a lot of discussion.

Thanks !
I suppose...but what a pain. I think Drennen's rant has to do with the fact that there ARE millions of installations out there with romex stuffed PVC. Air conditioners come to mind....
Andy in ATL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2007, 09:17 PM   #20
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,216
Rewards Points: 2,402
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


Handyman 2007

Please disregard anything told to you by this poster "Drennen'. Occassionally we get people like this on all forums that pass themselves off as people with years and years of experience and so on and so forth. Then proceed to tell you a mouthful of inaccurate and non-code compliant information. You do not run nm-b in an underground conduit and there is not an inspector I have ever met that would pass it. Conduits that are underground can fill with water for various reasons. If the cable or individual wire is not rated to be in a wet location it cannot be in a wet location for good reason. You can not guarantee that a conduit will not fill with water if it is underground.....glued or not. To be more clear you never expect or intentionally install any wire in water... the exception being well pump wire. Wet location means that the area is at risk of becoming wet. Nm-b is not rated by the manufacturer to be in a wet environment or it will likely fail especially if wet continuously in a conduit. The outer jacket nor the conductors are coated with nylon polymide for wet application. The conductors of nm-b are thhn only... not thwn as would be required for wet application.
There are a host of questions that need to be asked on your installation in leau of the things you have told us. As mentioned earlier it would appear you have two mlo sub-panels connected with the same feeder and using single wire lugs on the first downstream sub-panel to join the second feeder by placing both wires under these single wire rated lugs. You very likely will run the risk of a loose connection at these lugs. I would also like to know what size conduit you used. And as asked earlier did you keep neutral and ground separated in your sub-panels? How deep is your trench etc etc etc....

Last edited by Stubbie; 12-30-2007 at 09:28 PM.
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2007, 10:42 PM   #21
remodeling pro
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,399
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


Quote:
Originally Posted by tribe_fan View Post
Andy - can "outdoor' romex ( sorry I forget the correct term, but the kind rated for direct burial) be placed inside PVC for added protection in an outdoor environment ?

I'm referring specifically to 12 and 10, I've never seen it in higher sizes.

I looked at other web sites, and this topic get a lot of discussion.

Thanks !
I am not an electrician by trade, but here is my understanding of it.
The key to the correct wire lies in the letter "W" in the coding, that signifies the jacket is of a composition suitable for wet locations. This W is not on standard non metalic cable ("romex"). The other problem is with the paper that is used to wrap the ground wire being an attractant for moisture.

The cable you reference is known as UF cable, for "underground feeder", also commonly called direct burial. As far as I know, it is okay in conduit, but like I said, no electrician by trade here.
troubleseeker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 09:26 AM   #22
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 682
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
If the cable or individual wire is not rated to be in a wet location it cannot be in a wet location for good reason. You can not guarantee that a conduit will not fill with water if it is underground.....glued or not.
Stubbie, you old pro, I have to disagree with you on this one statement.

In my experience it is more accurate to say that any conduit run underground will most likely get water in it.

In 20 years, and haveing done quite a bit of retro fit work, I cannot remember pulling old wire out of a conduit dry. In fact even in new work if several weeks pass between when the conduit is run and when the wires are pulled, there is already water in the pipe.
__________________
Master Electrician
jwhite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 09:38 AM   #23
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


.........Ok, so it appears that, from the majority of professionals on here, the issue is moisture, and that the insulation on standard NM-B is not waterproof plastic, as it needs to be, like on the THHN/THWN.........that's what I was wondering about.............not the "code this"..."20 years that"......personal opinion answers, but the real reason for the code in the first place.
pb slinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 10:31 AM   #24
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,216
Rewards Points: 2,402
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


Jwhite

Yes I would agree that I was inaccurate in stating that the wet location was a risk area that may fill with water. Sometimes I find myself trying to say something a little differently so that it will be more easily understood. In this case looks like I didn't do a very good job of that. A conduit will fill with water overtime and I've seen that happen too many occasions to remember. In fact I've been on call backs just a few days after an installation where the wires were damaged during the pulling process and the "glued' conduit filled with water and had a resulting phase failure. Anyway I'm glad you caught the misstatement as it was not worded as it should have been.
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 04:14 PM   #25
Electrician philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 838
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubbie View Post
Jwhite

In fact I've been on call backs just a few days after an installation where the wires were damaged during the pulling process and the "glued' conduit filled with water and had a resulting phase failure.
Stubbie,

It makes you wonder why more electricians don't megger the wires after installation. I know that our British brothers test the insulation of every wire they install.

Edit to add: Inspectors in ATL have been passing romex in carflex on AC's since I got in the business. I'm not saying they are missing it...I'm saying they look at it and pass it. I'm also not saying this is right....

I'm confident when I say that 75% of the homes in this city have this code violation.

Last edited by Andy in ATL; 12-31-2007 at 04:17 PM.
Andy in ATL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 06:36 PM   #26
UAW SKILLED TRADES
 
Stubbie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kansas
Posts: 5,216
Rewards Points: 2,402
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


Carflex can be direct buried but I would think that would be rare in residential A/c installations. In my part of the country we use it primarily from the disconnect to the unit. And yes I have seen a bunch of romex in that situation. The manufacturer bills its fittings as water tight in the listing maybe your inspectors are using the water tight listing as voiding the wet location requirement since you likely will not have any couplings in the conduit run as it is sold in large continuous rolls instead of segments of 10 feet or less. And you do not glue it. Hard to say how they look at it but that might be part of the reason behind letting romex be installed in buried carflex.
Stubbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 06:47 PM   #27
Electrician philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lilburn, GA
Posts: 838
Rewards Points: 500
Default

Multiple Sub Panel Installation


Maybe, but I don't think so. I think they are letting a code violation pass because that is how it has always been done. Also, I meant btwn the disco and the unit.

Advertisement

Andy in ATL is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
beadboard panel installation (ceilings) t_mccann Remodeling 12 01-05-2013 01:42 AM
This doesnt seem right. JoulesWinfield Electrical 27 07-26-2009 08:40 PM
Splice in Neutral to Panel - OK or Not? allpraisebob Electrical 4 08-12-2006 06:54 AM
Adding new circuit breakers to 100 amp sub panel DrP Electrical 8 05-25-2006 11:05 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts