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Old 02-14-2012, 02:13 AM   #46
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Multiple Ground Rods, help


Well, I'm sorry this divulged into such a debate.


I only pointed out things for which I felt were inaccurate and possibly poor advice. I've backed up what I've stated from other links of which many more could be referenced. Otherwise, call your Insurance Company on this particular point. Take it or leave it!
Quote:
Speedy Peetey; "And now you are putting words in my mouth....
I NEVER used the word never. I also didn't say anything about "gross and improper electrical installations". These are YOUR words..."
Yes, those are my words and nowhere did I ever attribute them to you!

In addition, I said Insurance Companies "can" deny a claim "...if there is an improperly installed breaker, otherwise non-compatible...". You responded emphatically and absolutely by saying you know for a "FACT" that is "untrue". Those are your words. I never said "all" claims would be denied.....

Now you clarify by saying you have Insurance friends who say "...the only time they can actually deny a claim is if poor work and the resulting damage is found to be done intentionally."


*A homeowner who installs a "non-compatible" UL rated breaker in their panel can create an electrical or fire hazard! TRUE or FALSE

*A homeowner who installs a breaker too large for the circuit wire, such as could cause an electrical hazard or fire, and does so contrary to what a qualified electrician/inspector might have told him, shows not only ignorance but willful neglect. TRUE or FALSE

*A homeowner who purposefully and improperly modifies their panel to accomodate a "non-compatible" UL rated breaker; otherwise fails to wire a breaker properly(some have neutral wires) can cause electrical or fire hazards otherwise negate safety features thereof! TRUE or FALSE

*A homeowner who purposefully does electrical modifications to their home without aquiring proper permits, in order to accomodate their "non-compatible" UL rated breaker can not only create fire and electrical hazards but also breaks a number of local ordinances as well as NEC codes! TRUE or FALSE


Speedy, I've seen some of the most rediculous electrical wiring scenarios imageanable including straight hook-ups by the POCO themselves. There is no doubt in my mind had a fire occured in some of these instances an Insurance claim would have been denied or challenged, especially if life and limb were involved. You however have never come across such?


We may have to simply agree to disagree.

take care, Ralph


Last edited by Ralph III; 02-14-2012 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:55 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
I only pointed out things for which I felt were inaccurate and possibly poor advice. I've backed up what I've stated from other links of which many more could be referenced.
Ralph's advise is correct. Some other replies were only wasted bandwidth intended only as cheapshots. Citing Transactional Analysis is what the least informed and educated would post to subvert all useful discussion. Posted when they cannot reply with knowledge or grace.


Ralph discussed surge protection as has been understood for over 100 years. To be effective, a protector must be located to be low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot' wire from the breaker box to earth ground) to provide effective protection. No way around over 100 years of well proven science.

Common grounding (single point earth ground) is critically important. But only required for a protector that actually does protection. Many recommend protectors that have no earth ground because advertising replaces knowledge. Some believe an underground wire has surge protection when 100 years of well proven science says otherwise.

Critical to protection (as in it must always exist) is an earth ground upgraded to both meet and exceed code requirements. Posting about the DSM-IV to call Ralph mentally sick was wasted bandwidth. A cheapshot. That waste should have been apparent to everyone. Meanwhile, Ralph's discussion was spot on accurate.
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Old 02-14-2012, 08:53 AM   #48
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Multiple Ground Rods, help


This looks like a mickey mouse contraption. I think you would be much better off installing good grounding at your main panel. There are way too many splices/paths in your idea. Install sub panel move a couple of your circuits to the sub panel and install the surge protection in the main panel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
Ok, it sounds like I'll be running some copper wire from my new subpanel and connecting it to the existing 8ft ground rod and then on to the new 8ft ground rod (continous).

Is there any issue with having a gradual bend, as I'm depicting, with the new copper wire?

Thanks, Ralph
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:12 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by rrolleston View Post
This looks like a mickey mouse contraption. I think you would be much better off installing good grounding at your main panel. There are way too many splices/paths in your idea. Install sub panel move a couple of your circuits to the sub panel and install the surge protection in the main panel.
Thanks rrolleston. I've since decided to do it exactly as you describe.

Have a good day
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Old 02-14-2012, 09:27 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
*A homeowner who installs a "non-compatible" UL rated breaker in their panel can create an electrical or fire hazard! TRUE or FALSE
Very unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
*A homeowner who installs a breaker too large for the circuit wire, such as could cause an electrical hazard or fire, and does so contrary to what a qualified electrician/inspector might have told him, shows not only ignorance but willful neglect. TRUE or FALSE
Who said anything about a breaker - or fuse - that was too large.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph III View Post
*A homeowner who purposefully and improperly modifies their panel to accomodate a "non-compatible" UL rated breaker; otherwise fails to wire a breaker properly(some have neutral wires) can cause electrical or fire hazards otherwise negate safety features thereof! TRUE or FALSE
You don't have to modify the panel to install the breakers your home inspector site is talking about. The home inspection sited is wrong, by the way. In some cases there are breakers that can be installed that are not from the panel manufacturer. For instance someone makes breakers that can be installed in SquareD QO panels. They are UL "classified".

The only breakers that have a neutral connection that you are likely to see are GFCI and AFCI. Without a load neutral they will immediately trip on any load.

I pretty much agree with Speedy Petey on insurance, including that home inspector sites can have poor information.


Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Many recommend protectors that have no earth ground because advertising replaces knowledge.
By which westom continues his crusade against plug-in protectors. Both the IEEE and NIST surge guides "recommend" plug-in protectors. Westom is just not smart enough to figure out how they work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by westom View Post
Critical to protection (as in it must always exist) is an earth ground upgraded to both meet and exceed code requirements.
I have doubts an second rod would add much, but it is not hard to add. If added as Ralph proposes, with the telephone entry protector tied to the second rod, it will decrease protection and violate "single point ground" principles.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:02 AM   #51
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Bud,

1) A mismatched non UL approved breaker can heat up due to possible poor contact. Any poorly spliced wiring(hot) can heat up and cause fire hazards. The likelihood of such occuring is irrelevant when peoples lives are at stake. The NEC has plenty of codes addressing such and there is a reason an effort is made to list UL approved breakers.

I can't beleive you would bring into question of such but do note you said "unlikely".

2) I never said different manufacturers breakers couldn't be used in different panels. We just installed some in my father-in-laws house. It should however be a UL approved (otherwise manufacturer approved) one as I have clearly stated numerous times. Many breakers are no longer available for older construction.

There are threads on the InterNACHI as well as Mike Holts addressing this exact topic. I think it safe to say those professionals do know something about these things.

3) For what ever reason, a challenge was made and stated that an Insurance Company could never deny a claim due to an improperly or otherwise non-compatible breaker installation.


I am rearranging some wiring and installing a subpanel to my load center, to accomodate a Siemens double pole 20amp surge breaker (QSA2020).

If a homeowner did the project without a permit and then installed a 14 gauge wire into that circuit breaker, it would be a code violation, a local ordinance violation, a manufacturer violation as well as creating a possible fire hazard.

If they did so despite what a qualified electrician had told them they would have engaged in "willful neglect" and a challenge to an Insurance claim could arise with loss of propertly or life, otherwise they could be opening themselves up to a possible lawsuit with such.


All my points were relevant.

Last edited by Ralph III; 02-14-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:21 AM   #52
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Ground rods should be 6' apart. Yours are not. Only two are required too.
Jason, I only have one ground rod at the moment but will install a second one about 10 ft away. I've made some adjustments to my initial concepts.

In fact, I have a Mike Holts diagram but removed the post due to copyright reasons.

Thanks, Ralph

Last edited by Ralph III; 02-14-2012 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:30 AM   #53
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That setup is a code violation.
That picture was used strictly to show the 2 ground rods bonded with 1 continuous piece of ground wire which is what this post started out being about was bonding multiple grd rods,thats just the first picture that popped up
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:01 PM   #54
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So which part is a code violation?
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Old 02-14-2012, 12:46 PM   #55
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The clamp will go under ground with it,just keep hitting it with a hammer thats how i drive them in
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:30 PM   #56
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I agree with the "1 continuous piece of ground wire". That's definitely the best way to do it when connecting two grounding rods.
It may be considered by some to be a better installation, but it is NOT code required to be continuous.
The wire between the two rods is s bonding jumper.
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:30 PM   #57
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Youre not doing it right,if that clamp is on there like it should be and the ground isnt all rocks it will go right in to decent dirt.
In hard ground i usually pour water around the base of the rod when I start driving it ,if Im feeling lazy and I have a tractor sitting there a back hoe bucket is handy for pushing them in.
If the ground is totally hard ass trash you can dig a little around the top and backfill a couple inches of dirt around it.
Yes I was a contractor back in the days when it was cool to be a contractor,now Im just a retired professional jack off trying to keep from being bored!
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:31 PM   #58
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NOT unless you dig around it first. It will pop off if not. I've personally seen it happen.
Not in soft or sandy soil.
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:33 PM   #59
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It may be considered by some to be a better installation, but it is NOT code required to be continuous.
The wire between the two rods is s bonding jumper.
I just like it on the occasions when I do have to use 2 rods its 1 less mechanical joint that I have to worry about is all
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:37 PM   #60
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I just like it on the occasions when I do have to use 2 rods its 1 less mechanical joint that I have to worry about is all
Oh, I agree, it's definitely easier to just pass the conductor through the first acorn then on to the other. It's just not code required.

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