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Old 08-03-2013, 02:38 PM   #1
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Multi GFI Outlets kitch ctr


I am doing a full kitchen remodel and want to upgrade the GFI outlets on the kitchen counters so they will match the other switches and outlets we are installing.

We have two separate counter outlet circuits. (so thats ok). and there are two GFI outlets on each run.

I thought that any outlet downstream from a GFI outlet was protected from the upstream GFI plug. Is it required/necessary to have multiple GFI plugs on the same run?

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Old 08-03-2013, 02:49 PM   #2
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The downstream devices will be protected if wired from the LOAD terminals of the GFI. If so, there is no need for more than one device on the circuit.

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Old 08-03-2013, 03:16 PM   #3
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Thats what I thought. I need to check to see if the downstream outlets are connected to the load side or the source side.

Good point.
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:58 PM   #4
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recognize that the GFI will protect ALL downstream outlets... which is normally ok but might be inconvenient if a lighting circuit...

that could be why someone installed several on the same circuit... or else they didn't understand GFIs


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Old 08-03-2013, 06:54 PM   #5
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From what I can tell. These are two dedicated 20amp counter outlet circuits.
I can tell you that one of the circuits shares a neutral with another 20amp cunductor that crossed over into the dining room. I thought I read a rule that stated GFI circuits should have a dedicated neutral conductor.

So I am not sure how big of a problem this potentially is. I have found some other wiring issues that i think are wrong. The wire running to the range vent fan is 12g up to a junction box and they ran 14g from the box over to the range vent fan. I know the range fan does not need more than 14g, but I was pretty sure you were supposed to maintain the same gauge wire throughout a run. I can easily correct this if its an issue. I just don't want to rewire to whole house over this stuff.
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:45 PM   #6
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The breaker needs to be sized for the smaller conductor in the run. The #14 on a 20 amp circuit is wrong and potentially a fire hazard.
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:52 PM   #7
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I would put a gfi where needed. Wirenut your feed to your load with pigtails to your gfi (line side). Spend a little more right now but saves a lot of time troubleshooting down the road! Especially with the shared neutral. The other problem, unfortunately you don't want to change the kitchen circuit to a 15amp, you have to change the14 gauge to 12gauge, because Murphy's law says you will have a problem with that exhaust fan if you don't!
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:56 PM   #8
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Also you should make sure that the "shared" neutral is from separate phases. Your really not sharing a neutral if you have two circuits of the same phase.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian58Fraga View Post
Also you should make sure that the "shared" neutral is from separate phases. Your really not sharing a neutral if you have two circuits of the same phase.
your comment had me a little confused. The two 12g runs sharing a neutral have breakers that are side-by-side. This should mean they are on separate phases. Right? So why would they "NOT" be considered to be sharing the neutral?

A related question: I am trying to open up a couple spots on the panel, and was told that I could combine the two 20amp standard size breakers into a double "space saver" breaker. Wouldn't this put both runs onto the same phase? I was under the impression that this was a bad idea with a shared neutral. ???
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caveeagle

your comment had me a little confused. The two 12g runs sharing a neutral have breakers that are side-by-side. This should mean they are on separate phases. Right? So why would they "NOT" be considered to be sharing the neutral?

A related question: I am trying to open up a couple spots on the panel, and was told that I could combine the two 20amp standard size breakers into a double "space saver" breaker. Wouldn't this put both runs onto the same phase? I was under the impression that this was a bad idea with a shared neutral. ???
You should read roughly 220v between the two line conductors if they are diff. Phases, but yes if they are on the same side next to eachother they should be different phases. Also you r right you will have the same phase with the space saver breakers. You also may not be able to use those breakers in your panel. Your panel should say how many spaces are available. For example if it says 32/32 you can't , but 30/32 you can add 2
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:17 PM   #11
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Eagle.... you do FIRST, need to determine if these two legs of your "shared neutral" are on the same leg of the split phase or are the pther leg.

Do you have a multimeter... if so, test with your multi-meter, one hot to the other hot. Tell us if it reads 0 or 240.

Then, everyone can address your situation.

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Old 08-04-2013, 06:45 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Brian58Fraga View Post
For example if it says 32/32 you can't , but 30/32 you can add 2
Brian, I don't see any designanion of 32/32 or 30/32. There are 30 numbered breaker spaces.

Also, I do read 220v accross the two adjacent terminals. So based on your comments, these are currently on separate phases. Right?

So, am I correct, that if I combined them onto a space-saver double breaker that would be putting them on the same phase?

***Just so you know, I am not planning to "experiment" with any of this. I am just trying to understand what I am dealing with. So far, I have been able to just re-route existing circuits for all the changes in my kitchen remodel. Where I am (potentially) in trouble, is the new Island that I am installing in the center of the new kitchen. It will have a space for a microwave to set in, and a built-in beverage cooler. I plan to have dedicated 20amp circuits for both appliances and nee at least two power outlets on the Island. So I will need 3 x 20amp runs to this new island, and there is currently no space for any breakers.

[blue tape in picture shows where the island is going]
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:32 AM   #13
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Quote:
I don't see any designanion of 32/32 or 30/32. There are 30 numbered breaker spaces.
So, you have either a 30/30 or a 30/40. Look for a statement that says "40 circuits max." or similar. Or it is often in the model number. For example HOM3040M200VP is a 200 amp 30/40 panel in the Square D Homeline. You might want to post the make and model of your panel. We can generally provide more info if we know what you are dealing with.

Quote:
Also, I do read 220v accross the two adjacent terminals. So based on your comments, these are currently on separate phases. Right?

So, am I correct, that if I combined them onto a space-saver double breaker that would be putting them on the same phase?
Correct on both counts. I would either tie the handles together or change the 2 separate breakers to a double pole. It will remind people that it is a MWBC and insure both circuits are shut down while you are working on them.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:56 AM   #14
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Back to the topic of GFI outlets. Here is how my counter is layed out now.

I am trying to figure out why I would need 4 GFI outlets for this configuration. I get that it "looks" safer to have GFI outlets on both sides of the sink. But does it add any more protection?
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Last edited by caveeagle; 08-04-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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