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Old 03-17-2010, 09:15 AM   #31
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Ok Fellas - simmer down. This has been intensely instructive so far - and I'm never going to install or service electrical at any location other than my own home (since that's all the law allows me to do...).

However, this piques my former life as an attorney reading code of all sorts from all sorts of agencies. Wish I had a couple of hours to pick through this from the point of view of a legal analysis.

Have at it guys - my intuition (as a lawyer and a woman ) is that you haven't gotten to the root of it just yet.


If I could only remember to THINK about what I was doing before I did it.
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:41 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Leah Frances View Post

Have at it guys - my intuition (as a lawyer and a woman ) is that you haven't gotten to the root of it just yet.
oh, that's it. stir it up some more

and do you still do the lawyer thing? There are a couple forums I hang out that you might have fun with if you still enjoy dealing with that type of thing?
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:49 AM   #33
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Former life. Couldn't pay me enough money to go back to it (though I am a bar member in Oregon). Thanks for asking, though.

Now I am a full-time DIYer remodeling our 205 year old farmhouse and WAY happier/healthier.
If I could only remember to THINK about what I was doing before I did it.
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Old 03-17-2010, 12:49 PM   #34
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Hi Nap

I haven't found this easy to argue believe me. All I know at this point is that I cannot find a local installation requirement for the use of 250.32 for a mobile/manufactured home. And this includes those set on blocks with chassis wheels removed, permanent foundation or not. I do agree that the requirement of 550.32(B) is to allow service equipment to be mounted on a manufactured home in which case it would inherit the ground rod requirement at the structure.

My problem is with your assertion that if the mobile home/manufactured home is set on a permanent foundation, wheel axles removed etc it will have grounding in accordance with 250.32 for a structure supplied from the service equipment. I tend to agree with that assertion but I cannot find in my local codes or any one elses where that is the case. I posted a drawing showing that to be true. I can show you several more if you like. I just wish I could find the reason in the code language.

I am also assuming that if the mobile home/manufactured home is not on permanent foundation that you are in agreement that a ground rod or ges is not required??

Now where I tend to agree with you is that propety protection doesn't magically change because we have a so called "special occupancy" and therefore there is no need to consider a grounding electrode system whether service equipment is on the mobile home or not.

It would seem to me that you would be correct and apply 250.32 to a mobile home/manufactured home set on a permanent foundation regardless whether it is designed to be readily removed as defined by HUD. That makes sense to me as you continue to say. You would want property protection just like any other dwelling. And mobile homes/manufactured homes meet the description of any other dwelling/occupancy as far as the NEC is concerned.

Look at 550.32(A) Service equipment is required to not be installed on or in the mobile home and grounding at the "disconnecting means" other than the service equipment is required to follow 250.32. Note that this is not the disconnecting means of 550.11(A). but you do follow 250.32 for that disconnecting means remote from the service equipment.

But I have to agree with NAP that you would follow the other code sections, specifically 250.32, unless amended in another code section per 90.3. I see no such amendment or distinction set aside in article 550, other than the case of a manufactured home in 550.32(B).

So if I look at 550.11(A) in hopes of finding something about how the required disconnecting means is treated or amended inside the mobile home I find it to say that this equipment will provide a solderless type grounding connector or bar that has enough terminal connections to provide for all grounding conductors. So are they talking about egc's or egc's and gec's. I'm not real sure. Then if I go 550.16 all it talks about is egc connections and neutral and ground separation.

Again nothing that tells me to disregard 250.32 in the case of a mobile/manufactured home on a permanent foundation as to how to handle the structure itself in regards to a grounding electrode.

Again my problem is I can't find anyone that interprets a requirement that 250.32 be followed for the mobile home structure outside of 550.32(B). I can't find a local installation drawing that shows a ground rod or any other electrode at the structure (permanent foundation or not) connected to the structures disconnecting means of 550.11(A) or to an panel inside the mobile home.

Frankly as Nap has said if you have a mobile home/manufactured home set on a permanent foundation and do not intend to move it why would you not install a ges? Seems to me you would be required to have an electrode in that situation at the structure in accordance with 250.32 no matter where the service equipment is located.

My understanding and experience (limited in this case) has been that a grounding electrode at the service equipment is all that is required for a mobile home/manufactured home with service equipment located remote from the structure but this is not considering a permanent foundation.

So at this point I think NAP is winning this argument for a mobile home on a permanent foundation with remote sevice equipment. I can think of no reason nor find exception in 550 that you would not want an electrode at the structure itself (250.32) and connected to the grounding bar of the distribuiton equipment in that mobile home.

I'm still finding it strange that I cannot find a drawing that shows this electrode ... permanent foundation or not.

The key may be just exactly what is considered a permanent foundation and I am begining to believe that I am not understanding what that is and the drawings I'm finding are not mobile homes on permanent foundations.

HUD 4930 cg makes a statement " this document outlines the requirements for a permanent foundation to convert the mobile home to real property". but I don't want to buy the document to find out what that is...but I did find this...which might be taken from HUD 4930.

So I am starting to belieive if the mobile home is on a permanent foundation and is fed from service equipment remote from the home which I believe is what NAP is saying you would indeed follow article 250 and sub section 250.32. Unfortunately my experience with this best my memory recall ... is the service equipment was always on the the structure when it was set on a permanent foundation like poured concrete or cinder block on a footing. And I'm not sure if I was ever in a mobile home on a permanent foundation as described in the pasted link..... Those I remember were in parks and were fed by permanent feeders if over 50 amps or cord and plug from a pedestal containing the service equipment.. the ground rod best of my recollection was not present at the structure only at the service equipment. But these were not on permanent foundations as described by the posted documentation.

Nap .... before I forget I was not directing my comment about modular vs manufactured at you. I simply thought some of the posters may be 'thinking' modular instead of manufactured. Sorry if you took it otherwise that was not my intention.
" One nice thing about the NEC articles ... you have lots of choices"

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Old 03-17-2010, 12:57 PM   #35
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i knew this would stir the pot a little. took picks of the panel at the meter
and will share them later on tonight i know you will enjoy them
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Old 03-17-2010, 03:47 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Silk View Post
This Nap guy seems to be a lost cause.

Nap, are you really a licensed electrician?
I totally rebuke this. This is an open for discussion not just Q & A. I respect Nap's and the other's post. To outright blast Nap for him being in disagreement is totally uncalled for. Yes, he is an electrician and very qualified. Your post was out of line, disagree is one thing but to insult one's knowledge and or qualifications is another.

This post needs to be closed.


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