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Metric. Yes or no? Explain your answer.

6K views 42 replies 16 participants last post by  Leah Frances 
#1 ·
In the electrical world, there are kilovolts, millivolts, microfarads etc. All of these units are very simply multiples or divisions of 10, 100, 1 000 etc. Of course, there is "scientific notation", which greatly simplifies the "powers" of numbers. How about the decimal. Fractions are now rarely used & are cumbersome to add, subtract, multiply or divide. As an engineer, I've had some difficulty dealing with American units (that have not been converted to the Metric system). For example, US gallons is a very old measurement. I believe that it was adopted from the British but afterwards, the British changed this measurement to Imperial gallons.

Anyway, Australia has been Metric for over 30 years. Actually, my grandmother who is now 85 years old, was instrumental in assisting with the slow transition from the difficult Imperial system to the simple Metric system. Her job was to make sure that retailers in our area, had changed their measuring equipment within a fixed period of time (about 2 years). Even at 85, she is fully conversant with both systems but she prefers Metric. Why? It's a thousand times easier than the old system.

Even though I grew up learning both systems, I can honestly say that the Metric system is by far the easiest to use.

What do you think?

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/internat.htm

http://www.ukma.org.uk/why/myths.htm

http://www.ukma.org.uk/why/myths.htm#cost

http://www.ukma.org.uk/why/myths.htm#usa
 
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#2 ·
I grew up and at mid span the switch happened, I can recite most imperial and metric designations as I was taught conversion tables before I was actually taught what metric is.

Converting 300 million people is no easy task in the US

I remember when I first moved to the US I had not done any conversions for over 20 years, concrete in Canada was always in meters and I could always calc out my meters without any problems, first project here I needed 150 meters...somehow my rusty conversion came out at 180 yds...obviously I was a little short and the riches I was looking at originially just were not there.

The numbers are large in metric i.e. 4x8 sheet goods are approx. 2400x4800, most people can't comprehend that number, can't envision it and think holy cow that's hugh...can you deliver?

A 2x4 is a standard term, who wants to ask for 5x10's?

The relationship between measurements in metric is easier to calculate and cross reference between each other, i.e. 1 liter of water will weigh 1 kilogram. water will freeze at 0 and boil at 100 degrees celcius. All the metric people worked together to integrate everything, standard is another story, looks like people all over the map were working on it. Seems like some guy in corner A had a container and said this is a gallon, corner B made a temp scale and made his temp before he got the gallon of water and tried to boil it, but when he did and it did boil his scale read 212, so water boils at 212. There is no consistancy, but we all know how it works...and that makes it not broken.

I have an advantage on job sites now, some product shipped in from a foriegn country will be in metric...I have the tape measure everyone wants to use.
 
#3 ·
I used to live in France before and i got used with both metric and standard mesurements and with wire size as well i do go back and forth with both MM2 and AWG size but very instering part for tempture rating on electrical devices they used metric so pretty much universal allover the places


sure i go get alot of equmient from European area and they run alot of metric stuff in there and not too long ago one GC pestering me for the metric tape mesureing devices but for wire colour codes that diffrent story i will leave it out for now

most of my bleuprints i normally print out i used with metric mesurement first then second set for standard mesurement in case some guys cant figre it out

Merci,Marc
 
#4 ·
The metric system does indeed make alot of sense. Other than having to learn a new system, I have only two problems.

1) It's easy for me to picture kilo's and mega's, but I have trouble with mili's and micro's. Maybe since I'm right-handed, I just can't think on the right side of the decimal point. lol.

2) I just cannot get past the fact that a meter is a device to measure, not a unit of measurement.

Gomer: "We need 800 meters."

Clem: "I got 4 of 'em, I didn't know they made 800 of 'em"

Some of the metric stuff I do pretty good on, others not so hot. If someone asks me for a 10mm wrench, I know to look for one about 3/8". If however, they tell me somehing is 50 meters away, I haven't a clue.

I got out of high school in 1974, and I can remember them telling us "you might as well throw your USA tools away, it'll all be metric next year." 35 years later, most stuff made here is still US standards. I think alot of us are willing to accept change, but there's just some stuff thats so ingrained into our way of thinking that it's simply not worth it. Consider the penny; basically worthless, but still in use.

Rob
 
#5 ·
I was taught the basics of metrics in grade school....about 1962.


It made sense and I am still waiting for the conversion that was coming.:laughing:


My guess is that when gasoline gets a little higher they will convert so they can price it by the liter and confuse us into thinking it's cheaper.
 
#8 ·
I


My guess is that when gasoline gets a little higher they will convert so they can price it by the liter and confuse us into thinking it's cheaper.
I hooked up a digital gas price sign the other day. I told the supplier I think they are making a huge mistake by not including a "10's" position on the money portion. With the way it is going, $10/ gal is not out of the realm of us seeing it.

Remember when they breached the $1/gal mark and many of the pumps could not be priced for >99.9 cents/gal so they priced it by the 1/2 gallon?



I have absolutely no problem CHANGING to the metric system. What I have a problem with, and what I see most people having a problem with is CONVERTING from standard to metric.

People will look at a 1lb loaf of bread for a $1.50 but after a conversion to metric, they would be buying a .456 kilo of bread for the same price. The problem comes with they will want to convert that rather than accept that the loaf of bread they picked up that happens to weigh .456 kilo is $1.50. Then to top it off, the standard package will probably change somewhat and they are then calculating cents/ounce originally and the figuring cents/kilo and then converting one to the other and comparing prices.

We will have to (dare I say this) have to have faith that our government and the merchants will act in a fair manner and watch out for our well being until we are comfortable with the different units of measure and understand what is a good price or not.

I see handyman has posted a similar position.

Maybe we are on to something here.
 
#6 ·
Metric is great to calculate and use the same denominations between different forms such as liquids, length and mass. The problem is that we get hung up on the conversions from US standards. Back in my grade school days we had a discussion about making items in metric versus trying to find the US equivalent. At that time is was agreed we should just convert and forget about matching between std and metric. It happened with 2 liter soda bottles & liter water bottles yet no one seems to be having problems with that!
 
#9 ·
The only metric "intuition" I don't have is temperature. I have no problem with meters, liters, or kilograms etc. But, if someone says it is 26 C outside, I know it is warm, but I can't gauge just how warm it is.

I like the SI system and have learned it in school. I even had a phase in my teens when I tried to convert everyone that would listen to the metric system!:laughing: But I am nostalgic in a way for the American version of the Imperial British measures.

My two qualms with a complete true conversion:

1) the "standard" SI system doesn't use centimeters. Everything is either meters or millimeters. I like centimeters, but it isn't "proper" to use cm in any technical way. Dammit, I want to use centimeters!

2) Old wise sayings don't sound nearly as good in metric: "Give'em a centimeter and they'll take a kilometer". Or "that's a kilometerstone we haven't crossed yet". Or "a liter's a kilogram the world around". Or "a gram of prevention is worth a kilogram of cure". Or "In for a euro, in for a kilogram". Or "After dinner, rest awhile. After supper, walk a kilometer" Or "15 milliliters of honey will catch more flies than liter of vinegar".

InPhase277
 
#10 ·
My metric temperature meter

<0 - Put on a wool hat, jacket and some gloves
0 - Put on a jacket and some gloves
10 - spring jacket, bring a sweatshirt if it's breezy
16 - Down to a t-shirt by 10:00am if it's sunny
20 - Down to a t-shirt by 8:00am if it's sunny
26 - Walk out the door in a t-shirt
>30 - Bring many liters of water to work that day
 
#14 ·
Remember when they quit selling quart softdrinks and starting liter drink.
You can go into the same store, buy a 10oz, 20oz, 1 liter or 2 liter drink.

Whe I was in the army, every distance was in meters. I never had a problem knowing how many kilcks it took to make a mile. Reading a map by 10's was easier also.
 
#16 ·
For those who are interested in knowing more detail about the Metric system, I've attached a PDF doc for your use. Please note that numbers with 4 digits or more either side of the decimal point, a comma is not used to separate the "thousands" or "thousandths". A space is the least problematic way in which to separate these digits.
In 2000 when I was living in Argentina, I was constantly confused about how they arranged their digits. For example, their number "12,345" was not twelve thousand three hundred and forty five...it was twelve point three four five. They used to use a "dot" to signify thousands or thousandths.

From 30 years ago when I was taught about the Metric system, I was encouraged to use spaces when separating these digits, for obvious reasons.
 

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#20 ·
Personal preferences mean little on this question.

Eventually everything will be metric (or a soft conversion), it just depends on how stubborn you are.

Well, I think you're right but that's what they told me in 1970 and we still use miles on our roadsigns, cups and quarts in our recipes, houses are built in feet and inches and we order yards of concrete. So I may well be gone from this earth before eventually arrives. In the meanwhile I don't think I'll be laying out my next foundation in metric and then converting to order the concrete.:laughing:
 
#22 ·
All I care about is when I get up in the morning that I brew a pot of coffee.

We have adopted the metric system!!....where it is known to be a better and more accurate method.

We just don't use it in every nook and cranny of our everyday lives. What improvement would it really have in the building trades? If we moved to the metric then everything becomes an issue.. 1 foot is not equal to 1 anything in metric so what we know as 1 foot in length now becomes a whole new metric length.

I am curious..does anyone know what dimensional lumber lengths are referred to in metric? By this I mean what are the lengths for lumber in the metric system when you go to the store to buy lumber?

It will gripe me if when I ask for stud 'prices' and I get someone looking at me like I'm from a foreign country.

The American Standard System has served this country pretty well IMO. I think this whole push for across the board conversion to metric is really a over reaction. I wonder how things would be if America had the metric system and the rest of the world had inches and feet.

It's all about politics people and the "NEW WORLD ORDER" to bring the same money units and measurement units so on and so forth to an end result of a unified word economy.

I for one will resist playing follow the guys with the metric system to my dying breath, we got it.. right.. folks. Lets keep a little independence that we can still call American.
 
#24 ·
I am curious..does anyone know what dimensional lumber lengths are referred to in metric? By this I mean what are the lengths for lumber in the metric system when you go to the store to buy lumber?

It will gripe me if when I ask for stud 'prices' and I get someone looking at me like I'm from a foreign country.

common 2X4X8' lumber demison is 35mm X 85mm X 2400mm [ i did verifed with my metric tape mesure ]


Merci,Marc
 
#25 ·
Personally, having grown up with the U.S. standard, i find it more convenient for common measurements. The Celsius/Fahrenheit comparison is a great example. 0 degrees is freezing- that's great. But for it to be sweltering hot only 35 degrees later? That just doesn't work.

Liters are okay for stuff in quantity- water, gasoline, vodka. But measuring out 14.7 ml of baking soda for cookies? i'll keep my tablespoon.

True story #1- when i went to England for our honeymoon, we rented a car. i just assumed that the speed limit signs were in kilometers. They're not. The locals were not impressed.

True story #2- in 1982, a Chevrolet pickup with the "6.2 Litre" Diesel engine had standard body fasteners (platform dated back to '73), but the newly developed engine was all metric. The rest of the engine compartment seemed to be pretty much pot luck. They also used a different fuel filter assembly every year that the engine was produced, but that's a whole 'nother story...
 
#27 ·
The world is just passing the U.S. by
Really.....and where might they be headed?


. We really have no choice on cars.
I'm sorry that makes no sense to me at all. Could you clarify that we have no choice?


Hi Marc

What I'm asking is....when I go to the lumber yard... I'll say I need 10 2x6's 12 feet long.

Now when I go to the Australian or French lumber yard what is the standard length of a board?

Do I say I want 10 ..35 x 200's.. 3 meters long or something like that?
 
#28 ·
As I said before, it is the attempt at conversion that causes problems- not the units. It has been this way since I learned metric in the 70's. It was our parents who were they resistant ones- "now we are them!"
For those with science backgrounds it is easy to interpret and use these metric units. I'm sure those in Europe and on other continents have had no problem building structures, vehicles or buying fuel using the metric system for all these years.
 
#29 ·
Stub -

"Where might they be headed?" - QUOTE
They are just getting better while we dilly-dally around and waste time, just like our education system. At one time we were one of the best, now we are about #13 and going down. - Maybe too much time on adding, subtracting or dividing fractions instead of real numbers (much faster). they also go to school more days studying real subjects instead of music appreciation.

"We really have no choice on cars?" - QUOTE
Do you actually think you have a choice whether to buy a car with no metric on it? If it wasn't for the foreign car builders kicking the big 3's butts not much in the U.S. car would really be improved. Two years ago, a U.S. car manufacturing company said at a car show they would have automatic traction control in 3 to 5 years, while there was a foreign car there that had it as standard. The foreign car manufacturers spend more time and money on improvements instead of the old hat promoton of a "new" redesigned old idea. The foreign car manufacturers just use metric because it is the most logical, economical, universal system in the world for measurement and stadardization of high quality.

If you go to a foreign lumber yard (which is relatively rare since most residential construction in the developed world is not wood), you just have to know what is available. If you don't understand the dimensions, just ask some kids - even U.S. kids can look at something and give a better size description in meteric than in feet, inches and fractions. - Or just use a metric tape since it is much easier with fewer errors.
 
#30 ·
They are just getting better while we dilly-dally around and waste time, just like our education system. At one time we were one of the best, now we are about #13 and going down. - Maybe too much time on adding, subtracting or dividing fractions instead of real numbers (much faster). They also go to school more days studying real subjects instead of music appreciation.
To coin your phrase ..do you really think that the problems with our education system are because we don't teach metric and we allow studying of the arts?

As for metric on cars.. that is a given.. my response was not that simplistic. You have to look at the whole picture.....we are being turned into a consumer society as a result of a lack of leadership in protecting the well being of America. This is being done at the expense of the working man and woman. The metric system is not our savior.

Like I said we have for all practical circumstances already adopted it.

Do you really think that across the board adoption of the metric system saves America? And we magically correct our education system and catch up to the rest of the world who have left the United States of America in their dust due to metrics????

I don't liken to having a ring put in my nose and someone lead me to water.

I like the American standard units. They have served me just fine. I do believe if you built your house and poured your concrete in American Standard units and built one right next to it with metric equivalents they would both stand just fine....one being no better than the other. As for errors in measurement whos fault is that? The system or the person making the error? Or the calculator he/she is using?

I never liked metrics..... never had a problem with using them either. Give me a choice and I'll be just peachy with inches and feet. The rest of the world will just have to pass me by.
 
#31 ·
2 things come to my mind..."Daylight saving" & "the metric system".

Both of these things attracted a huge amount of attention in Australia.

With Daylight Saving, all the old farmers started to say things like, "It'll dry up the dams" & old housewives would say "It'll fade the curtains." Of course, within a year or 2, these people either died or got used to Daylight Saving.

As for the Metric System, many said that you would get less product for your money. Others simply said that they had no hope of learning such a complicated system (complicated?).

At the end of the day, only one thing stood out..."fear of change". Many humans hate change. Many cannot adapt to a simple change of ideas. But this is not entirely true.

It took 2 years to implement the Metric changeover in Australia & another 5 years to "level off", whereby most people were accustomed to the Metric system. Quite simply, if this change had not been enforced, controlled & regulated, it would not have happened.

My 76 year old mate in Australia cannot use the Metric system with regard to height (length). He can use it this system in every other regard...quite happily.
When he hears the weather report on the News & they say "it will be 25 degrees tomorrow", he knows exactly what it means. The reason why he isn't familiar with Metric length is purely because he has never had to use it. For myself, I have forgotten the Imperial measurement of temperature. If some one says to me "It will be 120 degrees Fahrenheit today", I have a vague idea that it will be hot. Then again, "hot" to me is over 40 degrees Celsius. Where I come from, it's quite normal to get as hot as 50 degrees Celsius...that is HOT!!!

If you hate the idea of dividing/multiplying by 10/100/1 000 etc & love the idea of using fractions & "long division", have a nice & difficult life with the "old" system.

For those that have a fear of "change", be aware that the world will change around you & you will be left in the dust. Also, change is not difficult. It simply requires a "free thinking" approach.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Shoot Kangaroo... I've been changing all my life. When you worked for a large company like Ford for 30 years believe me you saw lots of changing. Everytime they changed division managers we were told to change to the new way of doing things. In general we loved change always meant gobs of over time. Never listened to us guys that have been doing the field work for them when we saw issues with how they wanted things changed. Of course this was a different type of change than your speaking.
It's apples to oranges if you want to know my feelings about metrics. I like apples and I like oranges if the world goes with oranges that's ok with me but I reserve the right to prefer apples. In the real world we little people don't have any choice about change. So bring your metrics on.. I doubt it will cause a bump in the road for most Americans. But a reminder we have been doing just fine without meters. Heck maybe metrics (which I will say one more time >>WE HAVE THIS SYSTEM IN PLACE) will let the United States of America catch up with the rest of the world that have buried us in the dust......

I will say one more time >>WE HAVE THIS SYSTEM IN PLACE....

The American Standard units are hanging on with a thin thread. I just don't get how you all think that some scientific measurement system is going to be some kind of major break through that is going to launch the USA out of the dust that is covering us from the international community. We've been using metrics for years in many aspects of American technology, medical industries, the electrical industry, so on and so forth. When our architectural firms design buildings, oil refineries..etc. for overseas construction do you think we do it in feet and inches?? Metrics are alive and well in the USA. It ain't like we are are a bunch of primitive blokes that can't find their arses in the dark without a flashlight and a metric ruler. I live in America and I'm darn proud of our Heritage, all I ask is leave.... our American measurement system alone. It ain't gonna cause my country to be buried in the dust.
 
#34 ·
Shoot Kangaroo... I've been changing all my life. When you worked for a large company like Ford for 30 years believe me you saw lots of changing. Everytime they changed division managers we were told to change to the new way of doing things. In general we loved change always meant gobs of over time. Never listened to us guys that have been doing the field work for them when we saw issues with how they wanted things changed. Of course this was a different type of change than your speaking.
It's apples to oranges if you want to know my feelings about metrics. I like apples and I like oranges if the world goes with oranges that's ok with me but I reserve the right to prefer apples. In the real world we little people don't have any choice about change. So bring your metrics on.. I doubt it will cause a bump in the road for most Americans. But a reminder we have been doing just fine without meters. Heck maybe metrics (which I will say one more time >>WE HAVE THIS SYSTEM IN PLACE) will let the United States of America catch up with the rest of the world that have buried us in the dust......

I will say one more time >>WE HAVE THIS SYSTEM IN PLACE....

The American Standard units are hanging on with a thin thread. I just don't get how you all think that some scientific measurement system is going to be some kind of major break through that is going to launch the USA out of the dust that is covering us from the international community. We've been using metrics for years in many aspects of American technology, medical industries, the electrical industry, so on and so forth. When our architectural firms design buildings, oil refineries..etc. for overseas construction do you think we do it in feet and inches?? Metrics are alive and well in the USA. It ain't like we are are a bunch of primitive blokes that can't find their arses in the dark without a flashlight and a metric ruler. I live in America and I'm darn proud of our Heritage, all I ask is leave.... our American measurement system alone. It ain't gonna cause my country to be buried in the dust.

Obviously, my comment about "change" struck a chord with you. This is a typical human reaction.

Also Stubbie, you said, "We've been using metrics for years in many aspects of American technology, medical industries, the electrical industry, so on and so forth. When our architectural firms design buildings, oil refineries..etc. for overseas construction do you think we do it in feet and inches??"

The only obvious variance here is the electrical world, in which old units are still used. For example, cable sizes. If everything else has changed, as you suggest, why haven't cable sizes joined the massive electrical Metric world?

Whilst I clearly see your point, the one major point is to facilitate an easier level of communication between countries, re measurements. At the moment, the USA is one of the last countries to change to another system. Some would argue, "we are American & we don't change for the rest of the world. The rest of the world changes for us". This is a naive approach. It is as silly as if Australians insisted upon all shrimp being called "prawns", instead of "shrimp".

"Change" is relative to all humans. Whether it is about the Metric system or about spiritual enlightenment, "change" will always be controversial. Usually though, any change has a direct connection with spirituality.

Choosing to remain with a "soon to be changed" idea may lead to inner conflict.

The suggestion is simple, slowly get used to any change & the pain of such will not be memorable. It is proven that those who do not resist change have an easier life...for better or for worse.

It surprises me that how a different system of measurement can cause such a negative reaction in some people. In some cases, Metric thinking people may well be perceived as being Muslim fundamentalists. Mind you, many people reacted the same in Australia 30 years ago but these people are now either dead or they are a minority, as most people can very quickly grasp the idea of the Metric system.
 
#36 ·
Hey I'm just one ant in the ant hill. The other ants want the metric system I'm sure that will eventually happen. I so no reason though that everything has to be metric in the US, to me that is ridiculous. as for the electrical industry. Many of our units are listed in metric sizes along with American Standards , most of our tables in the NEC... annex a -d and chapter 9 tables give the metric equivalentsright next the the standard units. Our conduit is given as a metric designator size. Wire insulation ratings are in in C and F degrees.

What I have been trying to say to you is we (the USA) are for all practical purposes on the Metric system. Why does the international community give a crap about how we measure here within the USA in our construction and private community?? Everything we export and sell to other countries is to their specifications. If your argument is that the metric system is easier to divide, subtract and multiply and add, to me thats all to the users opinion. It is undoubtely the system of choice in the world. The USA knows this!! We do our business with the international world in the metric system!!! There are no broken bridges!! Next we are going to be asked why are we not building our electrical grid like the rest of the world.

I'm not negative at all about the metric system, I use it everyday, I just don't see the need for the international community to think I gotta measure a wooden board the same way they do. This does not effect you or anybody else in the least. This is within our borders...it should not be a concern to the rest of the freakin world.

I'm not a fan of follow the other guys lead in all cases. I believe in taking the lead or being a leader whether it turns out right or wrong. I don't like rubber stamping. Obviously the metric system is considered the system to use in the world. We are using it where it matters!!! I'm simply saying here that we will change to the metric system in all aspects of our lives on our timetable if that is the course of history. The idea that we are not integrated into the metric system in the USA is niave, we put a freakin man on the moon using it, we explore space using it, our freakin Military services are totally on the metric system.

I do not think you are a Muslim fundamentalist!!

Just let me measure a board in feet you hard headed Aussie.....:)
 
#37 ·
I'm going to have to agree with both sides on this issue. Let's not forget that the metric system was a mess before SI. They had kilograms of force, and tuns as a unit representing 1000 cubic meters, and myriameters, and bars for pressure... and more. We are really talking about SI. That is the proper term for the modern metric system. SI is elegant and simple... and ultimately it is flawed, because the meter is supposed to be 1/10,000,000 the length of the meridian through Paris, from the equator to the pole. Turns out the prototype meter based on this definition is actually about 200 micrometers short, but who's counting?

In the United States, Congress made it legal to use the metric system in 1866! We signed the Treaty of the Meter in 1875, along with 17 other nations. The yard and the pound have been officially DEFINED in terms of the meter and kilogram since 1893 here in the States! It isn't new. We haven't missed the boat. We are not being left anywhere because we don't use it amongst each other.

Every international transaction that requires a unit of mass or length is metric. Every Coke bottle we ship, here or abroad, has a metric volume printed on it. Every cereal box we ship has a net weight in grams.

Who cares if two Americans speak in SAE with each other as long as we speak in SI with our international pals? There is no more error involved with using inches as compared to using millimeters. It is up to the user to make the mistake, not the system. Hell, we even have an engineering inch, which is divided into decimals. Machinists in the U.S. use inches everyday to tolerances better than 0.0001". I have a micrometer that reads in increments of 0.01" (it is cheap-o).

And Stubbie, I think at the time we went to the moon, the engineers spoke in terms of feet, miles, and pounds of thrust. And that didn't hurt a damn thing. Still doesn't. My car gets 1140 kilobarleycorns to the pottle, dammit, and that's the way I like it!

InPhase277
 
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