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Old 10-23-2009, 07:31 AM   #16
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Methods for running ground wire


You ARE allowed to run a grounding conductor separate from the circuit conductors in order to meet the provisions of 250.130(C). See 250.134 (B), Exception 1.

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Old 10-23-2009, 11:41 AM   #17
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Methods for running ground wire


>>> ... ARE ...

I recently saw a picture (posted on this board? and presumably taken from a handyman's book) showing the ground wire attached to the green screw on the receptacle unit and (using words I wrote once) brought out to the wall surface and run exposed (unconcealed) along the baseboards and up and around doorways and approximating the route of the ungrounded in-wall cables from the receptacle in question to the panel.

This avoid having to fish anything or actually crawl into crawl spaces but does not help if you are preparing the house for sale soon.

More often seen is a ground wire daisy chained between pieces of electronic equipment, bonded using screws that reach the respective chassis, and connected to a known ground that could sometimes be a baseboard radiator or the screw that holds a receptacle cover on.
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Last edited by AllanJ; 10-23-2009 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:44 AM   #18
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Methods for running ground wire


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You ARE allowed to run a grounding conductor separate from the circuit conductors in order to meet the provisions of 250.130(C). See 250.134 (B), Exception 1.
Thanks - any thoughts about whether it is ok to run the ground wire between the sole plate and the flooring, under the wall's sheetrock? ie, the wire would be lower than the top of the flooring surface, there is roughly a 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch "tunnel" here that would not be nailed through.
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:10 PM   #19
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Methods for running ground wire


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Originally Posted by erikhaugen View Post
250.130(c) suggests otherwise, but I might be misreading it. Is this a South Carolina thing? I'm in California, if that matters.
NEC is the National Electrical Code. It's not a State Code. But the application (what year. i.e. 2008. Or an earlier version) depends on on the local or regional AHJ. (Authority Having Jurisdiction) Plus the requirements of the Utility (POCO. Power company) serving the area! Eliminate Confusion Through Education; Don't Drink and Drive, Ever!!!
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:16 PM   #20
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Methods for running ground wire


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Thanks - any thoughts about whether it is ok to run the ground wire between the sole plate and the flooring, under the wall's sheetrock? ie, the wire would be lower than the top of the flooring surface, there is roughly a 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch "tunnel" here that would not be nailed through.
This issue must have come up before. I'm surprised at the difference of opinions.
Does this mean nobody is sure whether it's safe or not, or that there are other, non-safety, considerations?
Maybe what is "good practice" or not, drives this decision.
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:25 PM   #21
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This issue must have come up before. I'm surprised at the difference of opinions.
Does this mean nobody is sure whether it's safe or not, or that there are other, non-safety, considerations?
Maybe what is "good practice" or not, drives this decision.
It's kind of funny, I am having a _really_ hard time getting my question answered. I even asked on another similar forum. Even among people who know what they're talking about and believe it is permissible to run a lone ground between outlets, nobody will take a stand on whether it is ok to run it where I want to run it. I'm assuming such experts would have no problem with me notching the studs and using nail plates, but if that's what I have to do then it probably isn't worth it at this point. I guess I'll call the city; probably the best move anyway in cases where it isn't clear-cut to folks in forums like this.

thanks!
-erik
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Old 10-23-2009, 02:35 PM   #22
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I guess I'll call the city; probably the best move anyway in cases where it isn't clear-cut to folks in forums like this.
You would help a lot of people if you got their answer in writing, and the basis for their answer, and posted back.

Plausible bases for their decision:
safety
good practice
politics
Unjust Enrichment
other

The first one can be scientifically determined to some level of certainty, as can Matters of Fact. Matters of Value or Matters of Opinion you can forget about ever resolving.

What gets me is that this particular question and its answer are not exactly rocket science.

I guess another outcome is that this grounding method is very dangerous in some situations and completely harmless in others, and nobody really knows why because it comes up so rarely that no one wants to investigate it on their dime.
Or, maybe some grad student has published a paper on this in one of the IEEE journals but the AHJs are waffling on adapting it.
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freea...number=1617974

Last edited by Yoyizit; 10-23-2009 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:30 PM   #23
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Methods for running ground wire


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Originally Posted by Yoyizit View Post
You would help a lot of people if you got their answer in writing, and the basis for their answer, and posted back.

Plausible bases for their decision:
safety
good practice
politics
Unjust Enrichment
other

The first one can be scientifically determined to some level of certainty, as can Matters of Fact. Matters of Value or Matters of Opinion you can forget about ever resolving.

What gets me is that this particular question and its answer are not exactly rocket science.

I guess another outcome is that this grounding method is very dangerous in some situations and completely harmless in others, and nobody really knows why because it comes up so rarely that no one wants to investigate it on their dime.
Or, maybe some grad student has published a paper on this in one of the IEEE journals but the AHJs are waffling on adapting it.
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freea...number=1617974
I doubt I will ever get anything in writing, unfortunately. Whatever I get will probably just be the whim of whoever answers my questions at the city.

I don't think this paper has anything to do with my situation.

I'm essentially 100% convinced that there are no safety issues with my plan. The wire will be protected, etc. Running grounds on their own is not problematic in the same way as, say, running the neutral and the hot wires separately. etc... I'm just wondering if there are some kind of code issues with putting it alongside the sheetrock vs. behind the sheetrock as one normally would. I'm a little fuzzy on where is it ok to run wiring, so I want to make sure I do it right before I do it.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:47 PM   #24
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Methods for running ground wire


Not to point out the obvious just make sure your outlets aren't already grounded. My house had 2 prong outlets, built in the 60's. All the wires are surrounded by armor and all the boxes were metal, and all bonded to my breaker panel so everything was grounded by the armor surrounding the wire. I only needed to swap out the 2 prong outlets for 3 prong and everything passed proper grounding. NEC doesn't require a ground wire either between switches/recepts placed in metal boxes that have armored cable clamped properly and are grounded through the armor because they will be grounded by the screws and metal touching the box. Things get a little more tricky when it's newer work using existing armored wiring and a plastic box. I'm not going there.

I don't think they care how ground gets there. My outdoor TV antenna is required to be bonded to my breaker panel so I had to run one single grounding wire through my house to do it so sometimes you have to run a seperate grounding wire.

Just make sure you don't have armored wire (My house had BX like the top wire in the picture http://z.about.com/d/homerenovations...-/bxwiring.JPG) and aren't already grounded. It was relief for me to find out I was properly grounded all along and just needed to swap out recepts Plug in one line of a test light into the recept and the other end touch the screw see if it goes on, or use a multimeter.

Last edited by Piedmont; 10-23-2009 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:18 PM   #25
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Methods for running ground wire


Why do you guys do this to me???? I'm trying to fish....remember?


Question one....what is the hazard of doing this ground wire outside of the cable or raceway containing the circuit conductors??

Answer... little hazard or at least very minimal. The worry is an issue with impedance. Circuit conductors produce a magnetic field. By running the equipment grounding conductor within the same conduit or cable this forces near complete cancellation of that magnetic field between the egc and the circuit conductor. The result is lower impedance for the effective fault path which improves the speed at which the circuit breaker will open in the event of a fault.

Question 2... How you run the equipment ground wire to any of the places specified in 250.130(C) is in accordance with art.300. So just protect it from driven nails or physical damage and support it where necessary. Use the correct clamp at any electrode used etc... How you get there with a non current carrying wire is up to you.
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:36 PM   #26
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You ARE allowed to run a grounding conductor separate from the circuit conductors in order to meet the provisions of 250.130(C). See 250.134 (B), Exception 1.

Heres what I found. 300.3 (B) does reference the above articles. But, I am still saying no. No separate conductor. The OP's circumstance looks like it is not applicable to any exceptions.

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Old 10-23-2009, 04:55 PM   #27
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There is some marginal benefit in running a ground wire with other conductors as far as presenting "a good ground" for the high frequencies that a lightning strike would inject into your house wiring.
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:41 PM   #28
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Why do you guys do this to me???? I'm trying to fish....remember?


Question one....what is the hazard of doing this ground wire outside of the cable or raceway containing the circuit conductors??

Answer... little hazard or at least very minimal. The worry is an issue with impedance. Circuit conductors produce a magnetic field. By running the equipment grounding conductor within the same conduit or cable this forces near complete cancellation of that magnetic field between the egc and the circuit conductor. The result is lower impedance for the effective fault path which improves the speed at which the circuit breaker will open in the event of a fault.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

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Question 2... How you run the equipment ground wire to any of the places specified in 250.130(C) is in accordance with art.300. So just protect it from driven nails or physical damage and support it where necessary. Use the correct clamp at any electrode used etc... How you get there with a non current carrying wire is up to you.
This makes it sound like my plan is ok.

thanks,
Erik
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Old 10-23-2009, 07:02 PM   #29
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I'm not really sure what the confusion is here. Explicit permission is given in 300.3(B) to run a separate egc in accordance with 250.130(C) when installing replacement grounding type receptacles or extending a non grounded branch circuit to a grounding type receptacle when no equipment grounding wire or means is available in the branch circuit. This is exactly what the OP is asking.

This is allowed for replacement of non grounding type receptacles served with a wiring method that doesn't include an equipment grounding means. All the exceptions apply to the OPs circumstances. In his first post he makes it clear he has no equipment ground having receptacles served by 12/2 nm without ground. This is exactly why they wrote 250.130(C). He is fine to do what he is asking.
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Old 10-23-2009, 07:08 PM   #30
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I'm not really sure what the confusion is here. Explicit permission is given in 300.3(B) to run a separate egc in accordance with 250.130(C) when installing replacement grounding type receptacles or extending a non grounded branch circuit to a grounding type receptacle when no equipment grounding wire or means is available in the branch circuit. This is exactly what the OP is asking.

This is allowed for replacement of non grounding type receptacles served with a wiring method that doesn't include an equipment grounding means. All the exceptions apply to the OPs circumstances. In his first post he makes it clear he has no equipment ground having receptacles served by 12/2 nm without ground. This is exactly why they wrote 250.130(C). He is fine to do what he is asking.
great! thanks. This is what I was assuming originally; thanks for reassuring me after the doubts raised here!

My question was is it ok to run the single green 12g wire in between the sole plate and the flooring, under the edge of the wall's sheetrock? So it will be lower than the top of the flooring, in that little 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch gap. If ok to do, this will be easy for me since we are replacing the baseboards anyway.

thanks!

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