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Old 03-22-2012, 01:11 PM   #16
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Main Service Panel to 2 breaker panels - I can imagine you all rolling your eyes


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Originally Posted by rrolleston View Post
Looks to me that there is already a ground WIRE going inside the conduit with the wires. Maybe you will have to verify on the other end.
Yes, that goes inside and connects to the copper water line.

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Old 03-22-2012, 01:14 PM   #17
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Main Service Panel to 2 breaker panels - I can imagine you all rolling your eyes


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Originally Posted by rrolleston View Post
If that conduit goes to the panel inside and has neutral floating I wouldn't worry about that. Just make sure you feed all other remote panels with four wires.
As I said, there is no ground connection between the panels. That is an absolute definite... no ground wire and no metal conduit.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:23 PM   #18
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Main Service Panel to 2 breaker panels - I can imagine you all rolling your eyes


Pointing out just a few things.

#2 al is not ok if protected by a 200 amp ocpd. You have feed thru lugs on the outside panel .. the feeder runs to an interior mlo panel. Therefore no tap rule is in effect and you need much bigger awg wire.

The SEU AL feeder and forgetting that it isn't sized correctly does not have a equipment ground but a bare neutral and is 3 wires and needs to be 4 wires. So you need to change it out to a properly sized feeder with 4 wires with an insulated neutral.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:12 PM   #19
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Main Service Panel to 2 breaker panels - I can imagine you all rolling your eyes


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Originally Posted by stubie View Post
Pointing out just a few things.

#2 al is not ok if protected by a 200 amp ocpd. You have feed thru lugs on the outside panel .. the feeder runs to an interior mlo panel. Therefore no tap rule is in effect and you need much bigger awg wire.

The SEU AL feeder and forgetting that it isn't sized correctly does not have a equipment ground but a bare neutral and is 3 wires and needs to be 4 wires. So you need to change it out to a properly sized feeder with 4 wires with an insulated neutral.
ok, now we're getting somewhere. I didn't like the look of the bare neutral.

I realise that the cable is not adequate when protected by a 200amp breaker. I do not have enough space left in the existing MLO, so couldn't I run new cable (#2 4 wire) to both the existing MLO, and the new MLO, via 2 100amp breakers in the outside panel, without the need to run any conduit between the panels?? This seems the easiest way for me, otherwise I have to replace the existing MLO with a larger one.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:35 PM   #20
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Main Service Panel to 2 breaker panels - I can imagine you all rolling your eyes


Kalus.,

I want to say Merci ( thank ) for posting the photo that will really clear up what were are looking at.

First of all you have a 200 amp main panel there. C'est bon. ( it is good )

However there is couple issue allready arise from that photo.

I know stubbie did mention few items clear.

If you want to keep the 100 amp subpanel you will have to use 90 amp breaker with #2 SER ( note this is a 4 conductor Service Entrance Round cable ) otherwise if you want full rating then you have to change the inside or subpanel to full 200 amp rating with 3/0 CU ( just watch your local code on this due this is a feeder not service entrance anymore )

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so couldn't I run new cable (#2 4 wire) to both the existing MLO, and the new MLO, via 2 100amp breakers in the outside panel, without the need to run any conduit between the panels??
Unforetally with that idea it will NOT fly at all this is not a safe methold at all so only way you can do is run 100 amp breaker inside while the outside panel you can have hot tub , A/C , pool from the outside panel so that way you don't have to clutter it up in the indoor subpanel.

Next step I know you mention hot tub I will suggest that you have to run this in the conduit no SER cable or UF cable is allowed on outdoor side at all ( the NEC code do not allow bare ground for this purpose ) and again it have to be 4 conductor ( black , Red , White et Green ) useally #6 THHN will serve this purpose but before I can really confirm this size you will need the distance before I can tell you the correct conductor size. ( the voltage drop will be noticed if not watching on long runs )

I did not see what you mention about water pipe if you have copper or galavized pipe please let us know right away ( if so you will need #4 bare copper for this )

The A/C have little oddball rules we do follow first of all if you do know what size A/C if so that is great we can able assit you on the conductor sizing plus the OCPD as well. if not just hold on until you get the manufacter info.

Pool part I will fill it in later but for now let take care the basic issue what it need to be taken care right now.

Merci,
Marc
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The answer will be based on NEC ( National Electrical code ) or CEC ( Cananda Electrical code ) or ECF ( Electrique Code France )
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:35 AM   #21
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Main Service Panel to 2 breaker panels - I can imagine you all rolling your eyes


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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
If you want to keep the 100 amp subpanel you will have to use 90 amp breaker with #2 SER ( note this is a 4 conductor Service Entrance Round cable ) otherwise if you want full rating then you have to change the inside or subpanel to full 200 amp rating with 3/0 CU ( just watch your local code on this due this is a feeder not service entrance anymore )
I could use Copper 2AWG SER, couldn't I? The run between the panels is only about 5 feet and I have to replace that cable anyway.

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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Unforetally with that idea it will NOT fly at all this is not a safe methold at all so only way you can do is run 100 amp breaker inside while the outside panel you can have hot tub , A/C , pool from the outside panel so that way you don't have to clutter it up in the indoor subpanel.
Can you explain why it is not safe? But I do like that idea, which would mean converting the MLO to a Sub Panel with a 100amp main breaker, correct? I could swap the main breaker from the new panel into the existing MLO, as they should be interchangeable (Siemens).

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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Next step I know you mention hot tub I will suggest that you have to run this in the conduit no SER cable or UF cable is allowed on outdoor side at all ( the NEC code do not allow bare ground for this purpose ) and again it have to be 4 conductor ( black , Red , White et Green ) useally #6 THHN will serve this purpose but before I can really confirm this size you will need the distance before I can tell you the correct conductor size. ( the voltage drop will be noticed if not watching on long runs )
The hot tub idea will be next year, but wanted to take it into consideration now when putting in the extra panel. The hot tub connection will be on the other side of the house mounted on the outside of the basement/foundation wall, so will not be outside at all (apart from the connection from the disconnect to the hot tub itself). It will be a straight 25ft run.

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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
I did not see what you mention about water pipe if you have copper or galavized pipe please let us know right away ( if so you will need #4 bare copper for this )
It is copper pipe, and the ground is #4 bare copper (I checked that today).

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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
The A/C have little oddball rules we do follow first of all if you do know what size A/C if so that is great we can able assit you on the conductor sizing plus the OCPD as well. if not just hold on until you get the manufacter info.
A/c is an LG Art Cool split system, which requires 120v 30amp to the compressor unit. I have a disconnect and cable ready for this. Cable is 2 #8 AWG THHN, 1 #10AWG THHN in non-metallic liquid tight housing.

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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Pool part I will fill it in later but for now let take care the basic issue what it need to be taken care right now.
Pool is easy, standard external 120v 15amp gfci outlet.

More food for thought, but I think I'm getting to the right end point, thanks.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:35 AM   #22
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Main Service Panel to 2 breaker panels - I can imagine you all rolling your eyes


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Originally Posted by kalus View Post
ok, now we're getting somewhere. I didn't like the look of the bare neutral.

I realise that the cable is not adequate when protected by a 200amp breaker. I do not have enough space left in the existing MLO, so couldn't I run new cable (#2 4 wire) to both the existing MLO, and the new MLO, via 2 100amp breakers in the outside panel, without the need to run any conduit between the panels?? This seems the easiest way for me, otherwise I have to replace the existing MLO with a larger one.
Yes that would work but use copper not AL.

Use the outside panel (service equipment) to run the circuits to your hot tub.

Last edited by Stubbie; 03-23-2012 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 03-23-2012, 02:09 AM   #23
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Main Service Panel to 2 breaker panels - I can imagine you all rolling your eyes


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Yes that would work but use copper not AL.

Use the outside panel (service equipment) to run the circuits to your hot tub.
Thanks very much for your help

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