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Old 01-17-2009, 10:04 AM   #1
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Lug Only Panel


Is it ok to use a lug only panel in an detached garage if there is a disconnect point prior to the panel? i.e. a disconnect that kills power to the entire lug only panel? The disconnect would be mounted at the point the service enters the building(garage) and the lug only panel would be near by.

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Old 01-17-2009, 10:11 AM   #2
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If you have a disconnect at where it enters, you can put the panel anywhere in there.

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Old 01-17-2009, 11:40 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
Is it ok to use a lug only panel in an detached garage if there is a disconnect point prior to the panel? i.e. a disconnect that kills power to the entire lug only panel? The disconnect would be mounted at the point the service enters the building(garage) and the lug only panel would be near by.

Thanks

Jamie
Yes and No. If you can meet the six handle rule no disconnect is required. But you must use a breaker on the feeder. (main panel). The feeder conductors must be sized to the breaker or the breaker sized to the conductors.

If you cannot meet the requirements of the six handle rule you must have a disconnect. A main breaker panel is the easiest way to satisfy this requirement.

I like to use a main breaker panel in this situation. It costs less than buying a separate disco.
If you have this lug panel already, just mount it next to the sub panel. 60 amp minimum.
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:41 AM   #4
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No problems.

just remember that the disco is your service disco and all EGC and GEC bonding is done in the disco, not the panel.




btw:
Quote:
lug only panel
= MLO (main lug only)
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Old 01-17-2009, 03:35 PM   #5
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No problems.

just remember that the disco is your service disco and all EGC and GEC bonding is done in the disco, not the panel.




btw: = MLO (main lug only)
So ground and neutral coming into the disco would be bonded just like a regular SE? Then when feeding to the sub panel, it is treated as a 4 wire system again?

I was under the impression that a detached garage from a single family home did not need a separate ground rod if feed by a 4 wire feed, is that correct?

Thanks
Jamie
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Old 01-17-2009, 03:53 PM   #6
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Take a look at code art. 250.30 a (1) exp 1 ( from 2002 code)
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:16 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by J. V. View Post
Yes and No. If you can meet the six handle rule no disconnect is required. But you must use a breaker on the feeder. (main panel). The feeder conductors must be sized to the breaker or the breaker sized to the conductors.

If you cannot meet the requirements of the six handle rule you must have a disconnect. A main breaker panel is the easiest way to satisfy this requirement.
The problem with the 6 handle rule is that you must still comply with 225.36 Suitable for Service Equipment, since most if not all panels require a MAIN to meet this requirement I never suggest the 6 handle rule.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:20 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
So ground and neutral coming into the disco would be bonded just like a regular SE? Then when feeding to the sub panel, it is treated as a 4 wire system again?
With a 4-wire feeder, no... They would be seperate, its a sub-panel Jamie.
Older codes will allow a 3 wire feeder though, (then you would re-bond) I am against this and do not do this type of install, and the 2008 agrees with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
I was under the impression that a detached garage from a single family home did not need a separate ground rod if feed by a 4 wire feed, is that correct?

Thanks
Jamie
You still need a Grounding Electrode System, it does not have to be a ground rod, but you still need some type of grounding electrode.

Last edited by chris75; 01-17-2009 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:25 PM   #9
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
So ground and neutral coming into the disco would be bonded just like a regular SE? Then when feeding to the sub panel, it is treated as a 4 wire system again?

I was under the impression that a detached garage from a single family home did not need a separate ground rod if feed by a 4 wire feed, is that correct?

Thanks
Jamie
I didn't get into that, yet. I simply stated that all bonding (I suppose I should have said, "if required") would be in the disco.

So, if you are using a 4 wire feed, you still need a grounding electrode system. You do NOT bond the neut and EGC at all. If you utilize a 3 wire system, one of the limitations is you cannot have any other metallic pathways between the feeder panel and the unattached building. If you use a 3 wire, you do bond the incoming neut and the gec.


Note; this is a 2005 code thing. It changed in 08 to utilize the 4 wire and no neut/egc bonding in most situations.

edit; corrections as I just plain screwed up and had this ass backwards. Thanks chris.

Last edited by nap; 01-17-2009 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 01-17-2009, 04:33 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
I didn't get into that, yet. I simply stated that all bonding (I suppose I should have said, "if required") would be in the disco.

So, if you are using a 4 wire feed, you still need a grounding electrode system. You do NOT bond the neut and EGC at all. You must also have NO other metallic paths between the feed panel and this building (ie. telephone lines, water pipe, data cable, coax cable, clothes drying line, anything). If so, you need to use a 3 wire feed and bond the neut and EGC in the disco.
I want to clear up a little,

if you run a 3 wire feeder, then NO other metallic paths, and re bonding is a must. (allowed by 2005 code) Grounding electrode still required.

if you run a 4 wire feeder, then no rebonding required, other metallic paths are allowed, and a grounding electrode is STILL required.




Quote:
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Note; this is a 2005 code thing. It changed in 08 to utilize the 3 wire and bonding in most situations.
In 2008 it did away with 3 wire feeders.
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Old 01-17-2009, 05:30 PM   #12
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thanks for being nice about it chris. Not sure what I was thinking. Had a real brain fog moment apparently.
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Old 01-17-2009, 10:56 PM   #13
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HI;

Thanks guys. I was planing on running a 4 wire setup. There is a metallic connection via the house and garage only via bell wire for the door opener. No other pipes or anything.

So If I understand correctly, I will run a 4 wire system and still need to do the regular 2 ground rod type of setup.(separate from the houses ground rod.)

The only part I am confused on is if I use a separate disconnect from the panel, do I just need to make sure there is a isolated neutral bar in the disconnect and then bond the ground to a bar that is bonded to the disconnect? (and then the same in the sub panel - bond the ground to the bar that is bonded to the box) Can the neutral simply pass through the disconnect, then land on a isolated neutral bar in the sub panel?

Thanks

Jamie
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiedolan View Post
HI;

Thanks guys. I was planing on running a 4 wire setup. There is a metallic connection via the house and garage only via bell wire for the door opener. No other pipes or anything.

So If I understand correctly, I will run a 4 wire system and still need to do the regular 2 ground rod type of setup.(separate from the houses ground rod.)

The only part I am confused on is if I use a separate disconnect from the panel, do I just need to make sure there is a isolated neutral bar in the disconnect and then bond the ground to a bar that is bonded to the disconnect? (and then the same in the sub panel - bond the ground to the bar that is bonded to the box) Can the neutral simply pass through the disconnect, then land on a isolated neutral bar in the sub panel?

Thanks

Jamie
Yes, just pass the neutral through. Ground the disconnect with the equipment grounding conductor. Go ahead and land your GEC in the disconnect as well if you have room.
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Old 01-17-2009, 11:08 PM   #15
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Yes, just pass the neutral through. Ground the disconnect with the equipment grounding conductor. Go ahead and land your GEC in the disconnect as well if you have room.
Now it just has to warm up a bit so we can work in the garage. :-)

I think we are going to have to wait till spring to drive in the grounding rods, no way to get them into the ground when it is frozen solid is there?

Jamie

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