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Old 01-09-2012, 10:16 PM   #1
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


Im kind of new to this forum and have seen good advice.

I have a Siemens G4040MB1200 load center. Decided to post a few photos and let the forum see if they notice any wrongs. Any comments appreciated.

Photos:
first shows the panel and area around it when I moved in
second shows how I kind of cleaned up the OUTSIDE AREA by moving the cable, phone modems and some power supplies to the adjacent wall. Plus a little paint on walls.
third shows the inners of the panel full view
fourth and fifth show closer ups of the upper and lower part
Attached Thumbnails
Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center-before.jpg   Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center-after-side.jpg   Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center-full-view-cover-off.jpg   Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center-top-panel.jpg   Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center-bottom-panel.jpg  



Last edited by Minus08; 01-09-2012 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:22 PM   #2
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


Inside looks good, just need some black tape on the white wire connected to the breakers.
The outside with the cable looks like crap.

What kind of comments are you looking for?

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Old 01-09-2012, 10:26 PM   #3
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


Ill start with the most obvious thing,the white wire on the 2p breaker top right should be identified as a power wire by being wrapped with black tape.
Im guessing its a newer house,where are the afci's at?
Why the big gaps between breakers?
Wiring inside panel could use a good straightening up
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:28 PM   #4
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


Looks like total multi-wire branch circuits in there, with no handle-ties.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:33 PM   #5
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


just a note: I didnt do any work inside the panel. All I did was clean up the outside with the modems and coax cable stuff. And OK for the white wire on the upper right breaker needing identified with black tape.

jbfan: do you mean the coaxial cable. I know in the first pic it looks crappy but thought I cleaned it up a little as in the 2nd pic. Comments looking for were anything obviously wrong

plummen: house is 10 years old and dont know why the gap between breakers was wondering the same though

kbsparky: should there be handle ties on any two adjacent breakers that are sharing a neutral

Last edited by Minus08; 01-09-2012 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:34 PM   #6
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


Quote:
Originally Posted by kbsparky View Post
Looks like total multi-wire branch circuits in there, with no handle-ties.
Depending on when the house was built, they were not required.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:35 PM   #7
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


OK, I see now that you took the 2nd picture from an angle after you cleaned them up.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
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OK, I see now that you took the 2nd picture from an angle after you cleaned them up.
Yeah that was driving me nuts having to look at that. Even though it probably did nothing functionally it does look better.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:05 PM   #9
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


It's a bit hard to tell from the pic, but that wiring at the bottom right for the doorbell transformer and the outlet below the panel looks kind of scroungey. The knockout where the doorbell wiring goes through doesn't appear to have a clamp.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:20 PM   #10
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


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It's a bit hard to tell from the pic, but that wiring at the bottom right for the doorbell transformer and the outlet below the panel looks kind of scroungey. The knockout where the doorbell wiring goes through doesn't appear to have a clamp.

Yeah I see what you're saying. I should re-arrange that scrounge of wires. I'll double check if there a clamp where the doorbell wires come thru. And that reminds me of a question.

Down in that corner theres the doorbell transformer wiring and then the short run to the GFCI just under the bottom right corner of the panel. The GFCI can kinda only be seen in the 1st photo(from my post #1) even though the GFCI is covered by a 6 way adaptor but its under there.

The last breaker on the right, breaker #40, is for the doorbell transformer and the panel GFCI. I circled in yellow in the below 2 pictures where their leads are wire nutted together INSIDE THE PANEL, then a jumper from this wire nut goes to breaker #40.

Is this connection with the wire nut allowed inside the panel?
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center-full-view-cover-off-break-40.jpg   Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center-bottom-pael-breaker-40.jpg  

Last edited by Minus08; 01-09-2012 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:26 PM   #11
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


Quote:
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Is this connection with the wire nut allowed inside the panel?
Code allows it. Some inspectors frown on it, but NEC-wise it is permitted.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:30 AM   #12
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


In USA side there is no issue to run the wirenut inside the panel at all.

And I did noticed that you have MWBC there and I know there is no handle tiers there so that time when the house was built I belive it was not really required that time.,

However once you map out the whole house with updated information and use the Nord, Sud, Est et Ouest ( North , South , East and West ) ordation for what room it in. ( I am not crazy if someone put a person name in the room on the panel dictorany due it will be changed over the time )

Then put a < > arrow points to know which part is on MWBC so whatever you do on that circuit you will have to kill second breaker to be on safe side due if you turn off one breaker and you see black et red conductors in the junction box you will have to be extra carefull due MWBC format and one circuit is off the second one still on and the netural conductor will still carry the current.

That the reason why I always put a handle tiers to prevent any nasty suprise there on MWBC ( it is the exact the same rules we have in France as well )

Otherwise that look good however I know Seaimens are good panel but only one quirk it don't show up often but it do is netural crossover bussbar on the bottom of the panel if your basement is pretty dry majorty of the time it is not a issue but with damp basement then yeah I have couple of them went bonkers.

Merci,
Marc
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:27 AM   #13
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


Thanks for all the looks.

Just want to get one thing understood about the multi wire branch circuits(MWBC)

That is when 2 hot conductors in the same raceway or cable are sharing the same neutral and these 2 hots are attached to 2 separate breakers in the panel?

This should be noted on the panel as the frenchman indicated?

I am in process of mapping out the circuits.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:33 AM   #14
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


Quote:
Originally Posted by Minus08
Thanks for all the looks.

Just want to get one thing understood about the multi wire branch circuits(MWBC)

That is when 2 hot conductors in the same raceway or cable are sharing the same neutral and these 2 hots are attached to 2 separate breakers in the panel?

This should be noted on the panel as the frenchman indicated?

I am in process of mapping out the circuits.
Yes and each breaker must be on a separate phase.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:05 AM   #15
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Looking for "Wrongs" in my Siemens load center


yes i thought that mwbc needed to have each leg (breaker) of the circuit on separate poles in order for the load on the neutral to be the "difference" in loads; otherwise its "cumulative" on the neutral and could possible cause the neutral wire to fail before either circuit break tripped.

http://www.homeinspector.org/resourc...h-Circuits.pdf

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