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Old 07-24-2008, 05:45 AM   #1
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A little more help please


In my previous post about wire size to my well pump you guys give me great info. Now that DEMCO has put the new service within 125' of well site I have run as suggested #8 THHN in plastic from the main panel.

Here is the situation, from the main I ran red, black, white and green on double 40amp breaker to protect the run. I know you guys said all I need was two hots and a not (green) for the 220 volt pump, I decided to go ahead and add the neutral so that I can add lights and an GFI outlet outside the the pump shed. I will be using a Square D 100 amp indoor panel model HOM612L100SCP, 2 pole 20 amp for the pump, 15 amp for lights and 20 amp for GFI, ( I had to get 100amp panel in order to have enough spaces for breakers).

Now the questions;
1) Do I need a ground rod at the shed?
2) Why are there only three terminals, Red, Black and White in the panel?
3) Should I connect the White, Green and ground from rod all to the same bar?
4) Do I need to add a ground bar and separate the White and Green wires?

Thanking in you guys in advance for the help,

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Last edited by hd82; 07-24-2008 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 07-24-2008, 06:12 AM   #2
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A little more help please


Number 1 - No, only need this at the service.

Number 2 - See #4

Number 3 - Connect white to neutral. DO not make neutral and ground common in the branch circuit. (not allowed by code)

Number 4 - Install separate ground bar and keep all grounds separate. Panel should be bonded to ground bar but be sure to remove neutral bond if there is one in the panel.

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Old 07-24-2008, 06:41 AM   #3
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A little more help please


Please expalin #4 ,Panel should be bonded to ground bar but be sure to remove neutral bond if there is one in the panel.
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Old 07-24-2008, 11:42 AM   #4
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A little more help please


I think I understand after searching posts for "Bonding - Grounding".

To "bond" is to connect or attach, therefore bonding of the ground bar is to attach it to the panel via metal screws completing a circuit between panel, equipment and ground terminal (earth or main panel)

The neutral should be un-bonded, disconnected or un-attached from the panel, the long green screw that goes thru the neutral bar to the panel should be removed and discarded thus separating the Neutral and Ground.

All white wires entering the panel are then attached, bonded or connected to the neutral bar, same procedure to be followed with ground wires.

The green #8 awg I ran in the PVC was not necessary, I could have spent that money on a ground rod and bare copper wire at the shed instead? Then connected or bonded to the ground bar in the panel? In essence I don't need the ROD because I ran the green from the main service?

I read a post here where someone had his ass handed to him for doing the job BEFORE getting the proper advice, then asking if he did it right, I don't intend on having mine handed to or chewed on for the same reason.

Feel free to correct me if what I have concluded above is not correct.
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:41 PM   #5
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A little more help please


Now the questions;
1) Do I need a ground rod at the shed?
2) Why are there only three terminals, Red, Black and White in the panel?
3) Should I connect the White, Green and ground from rod all to the same bar?
4) Do I need to add a ground bar and separate the White and Green wires?

Thanking in you guys in advance for the help,[/quote]


1) Yes
2) You need PK7GTA ground bar kit. Square D
3) No. Connect green to ground bar and ground rod.
4) Yes
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:47 PM   #6
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A little more help please


Quote:
The green #8 awg I ran in the PVC was not necessary, I could have spent that money on a ground rod and bare copper wire at the shed instead?
No you spent your money.... well......

To add just a little to what has been said....

If your well casing is metal use it for your ground rod, can't get much better than that.

You did good running 4 wires. 3 wires would probably have been ok but 4 is better/safer.

Below is a diagram of what your install should look like and you should have a main single throw disconnect in that panel. Since your panel is main lug you need to install a backfed breaker as your main disconnect to comply with code. It also will require a hold down kit. On your panel it will install in the left hand first two spaces. See diagram of your panel. That panel came with labels that said "main disconnect or something similar" which you stick in spaces 1 and 2 of the panel index.... Or put them on the outside of the access door. You will not install the hot wires in the main lugs you will take them and land them on the backfed breaker terminals ... turning this breaker 'on' energizes your 2 busses. In your case just install a 40 amp dp. I know you already have one at the service equipment protecting the feeder. But it is not the required building/shed disconnect.
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A little more help please-hom612l100scp.jpg   A little more help please-4-wire-subpanel-detached.jpg  

Last edited by Stubbie; 07-26-2008 at 01:17 AM.
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Old 07-25-2008, 09:01 AM   #7
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A little more help please


OK guys, here is where I need one more opinion on the ground rod, Nap says not needed at shed only at service. JV and Stubbie say "Yep ground rod needed and casing would be the best if metal. Since I am a DIY'er and unaware of who is Electrical Pro I would like to be sure I am following instructions to avoid ANY mishaps be it Mr. Inspector or Mr. Death!

I value this site as a teaching tool to us layman and respect you guys for contributing your time and knowledge. I don't mind a little jolt of electricity now and again but my grand-kids will be storing their fishing gear in the shed and I would not want them to get hurt by my mistakes.

Stubbie, I'll print your diagram and bring it to the site so that I wont have to rely on memory when I do the install.

Thanks again
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Old 07-25-2008, 09:30 AM   #8
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A little more help please


I ran A 100AMP Sub panel out to my garage from my main house 200AMP panel just as STUBBIE posted. It passed the underwriters inspection. The inspector made sure being it was a sub panel that the ground and the neutrals were separated. Thought this might help. Good luck BOB
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Old 07-25-2008, 09:35 AM   #9
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A little more help please


Quote:
Originally Posted by hd82 View Post
OK guys, here is where I need one more opinion on the ground rod, Nap says not needed at shed only at service. JV and Stubbie say "Yep ground rod needed and casing would be the best if metal. Since I am a DIY'er and unaware of who is Electrical Pro I would like to be sure I am following instructions to avoid ANY mishaps be it Mr. Inspector or Mr. Death!
napper is incorrect, a grounding electrode is required. A metal well casing qualifies as such so no reason to drive ground rods unless you want too.
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Old 07-25-2008, 09:52 AM   #10
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A little more help please


Stubbie, I have re-read your post and come to the conclusion the reason for the backfed breaker is so that for any reason I need to de-energize the subpanel I would remove the strap and turn of the breaker? It seems that all I am doing at that point is stopping current to the buss, I still have two live feeds in the box, in order to kill the current I would still need to turn off the breaker in the service panel?

I not saying this is wrong just don't understand the reasoning behind it. I have a disco that I was going to use on the well pump as I was told in the beginning when the run was going to be two hots and a not, could I run the feeders to the disco then to the panel and forget about the backfed breaker?
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Old 07-25-2008, 11:01 AM   #11
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Hello hd

You don't quite understand yet. You don't remove any strap. If your talking about the hold down kit. That kit is required because the breaker is a 'Main'. You simply turn the backfed breaker off like any other breaker. And yes this is to deengergize all branch circuits at the detached structure. It would'nt make any difference if it was a pole out in the field next to your pond. Hang a sub on that pole and you need a grounding electrode and disconnect.

Quote:
I still have two live feeds in the box, in order to kill the current I would still need to turn off the breaker in the service panel?
No.... you will not have two live feeds still in the box. You connect the feeder hots coming from the breaker at the house panel to the backfed breaker in the sub-panel. And backfeed it. It energizes the busses by back feeding the double pole breaker. So you will have no connection to the main lugs .....they will be unused. Look at the diagram of your load center I posted. You don't connect to the lugs. Take the two hots of your feeder and connect to the breaker.

Is this becoming more clear?

Last edited by Stubbie; 07-25-2008 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 07-25-2008, 11:21 AM   #12
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A little more help please


Quote:
I not saying this is wrong just don't understand the reasoning behind it. I have a disco that I was going to use on the well pump as I was told in the beginning when the run was going to be two hots and a not, could I run the feeders to the disco then to the panel and forget about the backfed breaker?
This disconnect to the pump is just that... a pump disconnect... not a structure disconnect. It is part of the branch circuit wiring not the feeder wiring.

Here is a diagram that should help with what I'm explaining

And this is what your hold down kit will look like (HOM1RK)
It simply secures the breaker so it cannot be easily removed.


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Last edited by Stubbie; 07-25-2008 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 07-26-2008, 04:46 AM   #13
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A little more help please


Stubbie, I may have failed to make my comment about the disco clear. What I meant to ask is; from the house I have 4 wires in pipe. Those 4 would then land in the disco. Then out of the disco to the panel. The pump, lights and GFCI would each be on separate breakers. Throwing the lever on the disco would then kill the panel.

My attempt to use the disco I have already purchase for the original configuration would save me the cost of another breaker and hold down kit.
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Old 07-26-2008, 11:21 AM   #14
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Very possible that will work... what is the amp rating of the disconnect and is it stated somewhere that it is suitable for service equipment?

Also I sent you a PM about the backfed breaker.. if you end up using one. You can reply here or back to me on private message.

Last edited by Stubbie; 07-26-2008 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 07-26-2008, 06:43 PM   #15
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A little more help please


Quote:
Originally Posted by hd82 View Post

Now the questions;
1) Do I need a ground rod at the shed?
2) Why are there only three terminals, Red, Black and White in the panel?
3) Should I connect the White, Green and ground from rod all to the same bar?
4) Do I need to add a ground bar and separate the White and Green wires?

Thanking in you guys in advance for the help,


Q1 : Yes you need a grounding electrode at the shed, the easiest way is to drive two ground rods. but all electrodes at the structure must be bonded together if they exist.

Q2: You are installing a sub-panel, this means the neutral and grounds must be seperate, you need to buy a ground bar for whatever panel you bought.

Q3: The neutral MUST be seperate from the ground bar and the electrode must only connect to the ground bar.

Q4: YES!!!

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