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Old 02-13-2008, 01:51 PM   #31
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


I agree that 210.52(B)(1), Exception1 allows general purpose switched receptacles for lighting in a kitchen, but only if there is a fixed, switched lighting outlet (fixture) already present.

I do not agree that this switched receptacle is allowed to serve the countertop. Article 210.52(B)(3) specifies that receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve the countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits. There is no exception here for lighting outlets.

Additionally, Article 210.8(A)(6) specifies that all receptacles serving countertop surfaces must be GFCI protected. There is no exception for a single receptacle, switched or not.

So my take would be install a switch for the countertop receptacle if you wish, but it must be part of the SABC and it must be GFCI protected.

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Old 02-13-2008, 01:56 PM   #32
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The single receptacle makes the outlet dedicated to one purpose. That way once you plug your cabinet light in, there is no way to use the same outlet for an appliance. Like in your basement, when you plug the freezer into a single receptacle, you avoid the need for GFCI protection.

A single receptacle on a switched lighting circuit, dedicated for the purpose of fixed under cabinet lighting, doesn't need GFCI protection and can be located on the countertop.
InPhase277
That exception only applies to unfinished basements, it does not extend to other areas of a dwelling. See 210.8(A)(5).
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:22 PM   #33
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I agree that 210.52(B)(1), Exception1 allows general purpose switched receptacles for lighting in a kitchen, but only if there is a fixed, switched lighting outlet (fixture) already present.

I do not agree that this switched receptacle is allowed to serve the countertop. Article 210.52(B)(3) specifies that receptacles installed in a kitchen to serve the countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not fewer than two small appliance branch circuits. There is no exception here for lighting outlets.
The key here is "serve the countertop surfaces". This means portable appliances. A light mounted to a cabinet above the countertop is not a portable appliance.

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Additionally, Article 210.8(A)(6) specifies that all receptacles serving countertop surfaces must be GFCI protected. There is no exception for a single receptacle, switched or not.
Again, here it means for portable appliances.

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So my take would be install a switch for the countertop receptacle if you wish, but it must be part of the SABC and it must be GFCI protected.
Nope. On an SABC, you cannot have a switched lighting outlet. But nowhere in the Code is it said that a circuit on the countertop is automatically an SABC. Not one place.

I think it is a matter of splitting hairs, but I think that it is still permissible. Will it fly with the inspector? Probably not. Would I do it? No. Does the code, as it is worded, allow it? I think so.

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Old 02-13-2008, 04:02 PM   #34
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


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I think it is a matter of splitting hairs, but I think that it is still permissible. Will it fly with the inspector? Probably not. Would I do it? No. Does the code, as it is worded, allow it? I think so.

InPhase277
I agree, once you've met your Kitchen receptacle requirements, 210.52(B)(3) & (C), there is no code violation to go back and fill in between the spaces with more receptacles on any size circuit and non gfi protection...
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:44 PM   #35
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


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I think the "in lieu of" makes it clear. Its seems to me that in other than kitchens and bathrooms, you can forgo an overhead light, as long as you have a switched receptacle.

This DOES NOT forbid a switched receptacle in those areas either. It simply makes it clear that a switched receptacle cannot be the only source of lighting there.

The single receptacle makes the outlet dedicated to one purpose. That way once you plug your cabinet light in, there is no way to use the same outlet for an appliance. Like in your basement, when you plug the freezer into a single receptacle, you avoid the need for GFCI protection.

A single receptacle on a switched lighting circuit, dedicated for the purpose of fixed under cabinet lighting, doesn't need GFCI protection and can be located on the countertop.

If you ask me if it should be done, of if I would do it, that's a different story.

InPhase277

While it may not specificly say they are NOT allowed, there are an infinate amount of issues the NEC does NOT allow that are not specificly stated.

That being said, its like this.

Let's say you tell your kid they MUST stay in the yard. It's a given that they CAN'T go into the nrighbors yard, even though it was not said.

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I agree, once you've met your Kitchen receptacle requirements, 210.52(B)(3) & (C), there is no code violation to go back and fill in between the spaces with more receptacles on any size circuit and non gfi protection...
I disagree. The way I interpret it is that ANY receptacle serving the countertop becomes part of a SABC, as there is NO WAY to differentiate. Yes, if it was a single receptacle nothing else could be plugged in at the same time, but it is just as easy to unplug the light and then plug the toaster in... thus becoming a non GFI protected (and switched)SABC.


InPhase, I will say tecnicallly anything that is cord and plug is not perminant. IMO, if you don't have to kill the breaker to safely remove it, it is NOT a perminant fixture.

Last edited by arichard21; 02-13-2008 at 04:55 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 02-13-2008, 05:41 PM   #36
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I disagree. The way I interpret it is that ANY receptacle serving the countertop becomes part of a SABC, as there is NO WAY to differentiate. Yes, if it was a single receptacle nothing else could be plugged in at the same time, but it is just as easy to unplug the light and then plug the toaster in... thus becoming a non GFI protected (and switched)SABC.

Thats because your not reading it right... Answer me this, where does it say that any receptacle must be on a SABC? Look at is this way, Once i've met the code requirements for the outlets serving the kitchen counter, anything else I add is NOT serving the counter...

If you have the time, read this thread... http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=95591

Last edited by chris75; 02-13-2008 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:46 PM   #37
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I will meet you half way chris.


ANYTHING serving the countertop IS A SABC. The code states there must be 2 OR MORE. If you place 2 ccts, then another, it is still a SABC.

That being said, I am going to agree that it would NOT be a violation to switch the outlet, so long as it is still a SABC and conforms to the code relating to them.

That was a very enlightening read.
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:53 PM   #38
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


This one is a better argument. I urge everyone replying here to take the time to read it. I'm not sure it convinces any of us to change our opinions but it really hashes out the relevant codes. I have now decided this section of code to be very poor language..... I bet we can agree in part with that statement....

http://forums.mikeholt.com/archive/i...p/t-65854.html
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:02 PM   #39
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


The one thing that really gets me is this.... if I can bring in a general purpose branch circuit that is code legal to the countertop after I have installed the receptacles of the required 2 SABC's, and go along beside these and install 15 amp switched gfci receptacles for cord and plug lights or whatever how do you uphold the reasoning behind the small appliances branch circuits. A housewife is going to plug whatever she wants into them, what are you going to do label them no kitchen appliances here please?

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Old 02-13-2008, 07:09 PM   #40
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In a word: NO.

The correct word is yes.

NEC doesnt restrict what you plug in to the recep.

It does have to be GFCI though.


You can't HARDWIRE the lights from the kit circuit.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:49 PM   #41
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The one thing that really gets me is this.... if I can bring in a general purpose branch circuit that is code legal to the countertop after I have installed the receptacles of the required 2 SABC's, and go along beside these and install 15 amp switched gfci receptacles for cord and plug lights or whatever how do you uphold the reasoning behind the small appliances branch circuits. A housewife is going to plug whatever she wants into them, what are you going to do label them no kitchen appliances here please?

Stubbie
The links are for sure interesting reading! Seems we are not the only ones who disagree about the language of the code!

However, Stubbie, what you say about labels, doesn't that same thing apply to any dedicated circuit in a location that otherwise requires GFCI protection? I mean, if you have a circuit for a deep freeze in the garage, but don't have the freezer covering it up, do you put a label on it that says "no power tools please"?

In my opinion, as I read the code, if you were to have the required SA circuits, you could come right along and place a switched lighting receptacle there on a lighting circuit. I would say a single receptacle. The exception to 210.70(B) does not forbid it, because if you have an overhead fixture, there is nothing to be "in lieu of". Furthermore, the article 210.8(A)(6) only requires receptacles that serve the countertops to be GFCI protected. The receptacles we ar concerned with do not "serve the countertop surfaces", instead they serve the lights above the counter.

NOWHERE in the code does it state that a circuit becomes an SABC once it is placed above the countertop.

If it were me, I would place a dead-face GFI in a two gang box with the switch, then hit my receptacles. I would also place it on a 20 A circuit, because I don't pull 15 A circuits anyhow.

On second thought, I would probably just put the receptacles in the cabinet ABOVE the lights, and drill a hole for the cord.

I'm only arguing this because I think the code would allow it, and because I like to argue!

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Old 02-13-2008, 09:16 PM   #42
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The links are for sure interesting reading! Seems we are not the only ones who disagree about the language of the code!

However, Stubbie, what you say about labels, doesn't that same thing apply to any dedicated circuit in a location that otherwise requires GFCI protection? I mean, if you have a circuit for a deep freeze in the garage, but don't have the freezer covering it up, do you put a label on it that says "no power tools please"?

In my opinion, as I read the code, if you were to have the required SA circuits, you could come right along and place a switched lighting receptacle there on a lighting circuit. I would say a single receptacle. The exception to 210.70(B) does not forbid it, because if you have an overhead fixture, there is nothing to be "in lieu of". Furthermore, the article 210.8(A)(6) only requires receptacles that serve the countertops to be GFCI protected. The receptacles we ar concerned with do not "serve the countertop surfaces", instead they serve the lights above the counter.

NOWHERE in the code does it state that a circuit becomes an SABC once it is placed above the countertop.

If it were me, I would place a dead-face GFI in a two gang box with the switch, then hit my receptacles. I would also place it on a 20 A circuit, because I don't pull 15 A circuits anyhow.

On second thought, I would probably just put the receptacles in the cabinet ABOVE the lights, and drill a hole for the cord.

I'm only arguing this because I think the code would allow it, and because I like to argue!

InPhase277
I hope I never find myself in the position to install receptacles that are not part of the SABC's, but I do agree that it is legal...
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:23 PM   #43
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I hope I never find myself in the position to install receptacles that are not part of the SABC's, but I do agree that it is legal...
... if they don't serve the countertop!
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:49 PM   #44
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... if they don't serve the countertop!

Yep... !
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:38 AM   #45
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Well you would certainly think that you could have a switched receptacle for whatever in the kitchen for other than sabc requirements..... My problem is I don't see how to put one over the counter and it not be considered serving the counter top. I've decided that none of us are wrong just some of us are mistaken.

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