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Old 02-11-2008, 11:48 AM   #16
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


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Originally Posted by arichard21 View Post
All intent aside, if there is a receptacle above the countertop, then it is a SA branch circuit. Refers, stoves, etc are totally different because they are not easily accessable. Ya, sure, someone COULD move the fridge and plug in a toaster oven there, or they COULD pull out the stove and plug in the microwave.

In reality that isn't going to happen. And those receptacles are NOT above a countertop either, therefore are not a SABC.
Right, it isn't likely. Having said that, I can't for the life of me find where in the code that forbids a non-SA circuit from being on the countertop. What I do find is a requirement to provide at least 2 SA circuits for the countertop, but I can't find a requirement forbidding other circuits.

As a matter of fact, look at 210.52(B)(1) Exception 1. This would specifically allow a switched receptacle in the areas served by SA circuits as long as it was not on the SA circuit, and there was a hardwired overhead light in the kitchen.

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Old 02-11-2008, 02:00 PM   #17
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But my understanding of the code (and I am NOT a professional, so someone correct me if I am wrong) is that you need (at least) 2 dedicated SABC serving the countertop... meaning that AREA (countertop) has to be served by them and not served by anything else (not to be confused with them serving another area) just like a bathroom requires a dedicated cct serving only the bathroom and you couldn't have a cct serving 3 recptacles in there then tap off a bedroom for another receptacle...
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Old 02-11-2008, 02:11 PM   #18
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Code reference:

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

The 2 small app. BC can serve more than the countertop. they can serve all rec. in the rooms mentioned above. Keep in mind that the NEC is the "MINIMUM" requirements. You can have 3 or 4 SABC if you want.
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Old 02-11-2008, 02:13 PM   #19
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


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But my understanding of the code (and I am NOT a professional, so someone correct me if I am wrong) is that you need (at least) 2 dedicated SABC serving the countertop... meaning that AREA (countertop) has to be served by them and not served by anything else (not to be confused with them serving another area) just like a bathroom requires a dedicated cct serving only the bathroom and you couldn't have a cct serving 3 receptacles in there then tap off a bedroom for another receptacle...
The code requires at least two 20 A SABCs to serve the kitchen countertop, correct. But it DOES NOT forbid other circuits there as well. You can have 5 SABCs on the countertop, and then run a 15 A switched lighting circuit to a dedicated receptacle there also.

The two 20 A SABCs serving the counter shall serve no other outlets. As long as they are present, any number of other circuits can be placed there as well. You can put an outlet for your welder there. Plug a clothes dryer in next to the sink, doesn't matter.

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Old 02-11-2008, 02:27 PM   #20
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Inphase, The 2 SABC can serve more than countertops.
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Old 02-11-2008, 02:46 PM   #21
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Inphase, The 2 SABC can serve more than countertops.
Right, I'm sorry, I didn't expand on that. I meant more broadly as in the area they serve. That is, the kitchen, etc.

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Old 02-13-2008, 01:34 AM   #22
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


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As a matter of fact, look at 210.52(B)(1) Exception 1. This would specifically allow a switched receptacle in the areas served by SA circuits as long as it was not on the SA circuit, and there was a hardwired overhead light in the kitchen.
Yes but this exception requires that receptacle to be installed in accordance with 210.70 (A)(1). The 270(A)(1) exception specifically states that in other than kitchens and bathrooms a switched receptacle for lighting is allowed in lieu of a lighting fixture (outlet).

The small appliance circuit receptacles are required by 210.52(B)(1) & (2)) to serve all wall and counter spaces in those areas and nothing else. The exceptions to 210.52(B)(2) are examples of receptacles not in wall or counter space. They are not available for wall use, they are covered by either a range or a clock or a fridge or a cabinet door, and would violate (B)(2) if not allowed by the exceptions.

What I'm saying here is if we are talking about a receptacle over the countertop and is readily accessible (exposed) to a cord and plug appliance sitting on the countertop it cannot serve lighting whether it is switched or not. It doesn't matter whether it is brought in after the 2 sabc's are met or not if that circuit you bring in shows up on a wall or countertop serving a receptacle it is under the requirements of a kitchen small appliance branch circuit. There are no general purpose receptacles in a kitchen only those covered by the exceptions are allowed.

Now if you were to ask my wife whether or not she could plug a light into that receptacle that's another story so lets don't go there.

Last edited by Stubbie; 02-13-2008 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:13 AM   #23
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Yes but this exception requires that receptacle to be installed in accordance with 210.70 (A)(1). The 270(A)(1) exception specifically states that in other than kitchens and bathrooms a switched receptacle for lighting is allowed in lieu of a lighting fixture (outlet).

The small appliance circuit receptacles are required by 210.52(B)(1) & (2)) to serve all wall and counter spaces in those areas and nothing else. The exceptions to 210.52(B)(2) are examples of receptacles not in wall or counter space. They are not available for wall use, they are covered by either a range or a clock or a fridge or a cabinet door, and would violate (B)(2) if not allowed by the exceptions.

What I'm saying here is if we are talking about a receptacle over the countertop and is readily accessible (exposed) to a cord and plug appliance sitting on the countertop it cannot serve lighting.
The exception to 210.70(A)(1) means that there must be another source for lighting other than just a switched receptacle in those areas. As far as I can tell, if you have regular overhead lighting in place in your kitchen, there is no reason you can't place a switched receptacle on your countertop (a single receptacle!) for other lighting.

Here's the requirements in a nutshell:

1) An overhead light must be present: 210.70(A)(1) Exception 1
2) The switched outlet cannot be on an SA circuit: 210.52(B)(2)
3) The switched outlet cannot serve appliances on the countertop surface unless it is GFCI protected: 210.8(A)(6)
4) General purpose switched circuits are allowed, if you meet requirements 1, 2, and 3 above: 210.52(B)(1) Exception 1

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Old 02-13-2008, 12:02 PM   #24
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


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The exception to 210.70(A)(1) means that there must be another source for lighting other than just a switched receptacle in those areas. As far as I can tell, if you have regular overhead lighting in place in your kitchen, there is no reason you can't place a switched receptacle on your countertop (a single receptacle!) for other lighting.
Well I'm just not seeing that logic to the language in that section. To me this is saying I may have a switched receptacle for light(s) in lieu of the light fixture for lighting in those areas. I don't see it as you must have a lighting fixture then you can have a switched receptacle. In all my years you could have a switched receptacle with the switch located at the entry to the room instead of a switched light fixture. So I agree that the kitchen requires at least one switched overhead light fixture a switched receptacle for lights is allowed as long as it isn't a kitchen or bath. There are thousands of older homes like this though I will admit it isn't a common practice to have one or the other anymore in those areas outside the kitchen and bath. I can't even remember how long that code section has remained unchanged. This is an exception to the fixed light fixture be it overhead or a sconce or whatever in other than kitchens and baths.. It says I may do that if it isn't a kitchen sabc. I also don't see where it mentions it's ok in a kitchen if it is a single or a duplex.

I'll keep reading but I am having some difficulty getting wrapped around this logic. You may well be correct but I have got to look at it a little longer before I decide that is the case.

Last edited by Stubbie; 02-13-2008 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:10 PM   #25
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


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The exception to 210.70(A)(1) means that there must be another source for lighting other than just a switched receptacle in those areas. As far as I can tell, if you have regular overhead lighting in place in your kitchen, there is no reason you can't place a switched receptacle on your countertop (a single receptacle!) for other lighting.

Here's the requirements in a nutshell:

1) An overhead light must be present: 210.70(A)(1) Exception 1
2) The switched outlet cannot be on an SA circuit: 210.52(B)(2)
3) The switched outlet cannot serve appliances on the countertop surface unless it is GFCI protected: 210.8(A)(6)
4) General purpose switched circuits are allowed, if you meet requirements 1, 2, and 3 above: 210.52(B)(1) Exception 1

InPhase277
The bolded contradicts everything you are saying.

If there are receptacles on the coutertop area, then it is in effect a SABC, and ust follow the rules regarding them.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:29 PM   #26
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lighting on kitchen gfci allowed?


Just noticed this too...

210.52 (b)(1) exception 1 says exactly

"in addition to the required recepracles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a GENERAL-PURPOSE branch circuit as defined in 210.70(a)(1), exception no.1 shall be permitted. "


What bearing does general purpose branch circuit have on a SABC?
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:40 PM   #27
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Arichard21

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make... the exception in 250.52(B)(1) referring you to the 210.70(A)(1) exception is talking about the required general purpose receptacles of 210.52 in other than kitchens and bathrooms. It is not referencing the sabc's it is prohibiting them from using this exception IMO.

There are not any 'general purpose' branch circuits in a kitchen serving receptacles single or duplex..

Last edited by Stubbie; 02-13-2008 at 12:54 PM. Reason: added word prohibit
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:52 PM   #28
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The bolded contradicts everything you are saying.

If there are receptacles on the coutertop area, then it is in effect a SABC, and ust follow the rules regarding them.
Just how is it a contradiction? You have two SABCs right? These serve only the kitchen GFCI receptacles that are used to power portable appliances. These are required. Then the first exception to 210.52(B)(1) allows a general purpose circuit to be used in addition.

Nowhere does the code say that any circuit in the kitchen is by definition an SABC. You must have two SABCs. Once you have satisfied that requirement, you can add any number of other circuits.

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Old 02-13-2008, 01:22 PM   #29
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I would like to stay here and continue this because I think there is a lot to be learned in these discussions. But I like other things besides code discussion to fulfill my day... I think I'll do some calculus or something after this...


One last entry then I need to go and I'll be back later. The language used is 2 or more sabc's not 'at least 2'. It has always been my understanding that this language of 2 or more for kitchens means any additional branch circuits are sabc's if they serve receptacles. The first exception in 210.52(B)(1) is not speaking to the kitchen sabc's it is speaking to the general purpose branch circuits specified in 210.52 for other areas of the dwelling outside bathrooms and kitchens. When that exception refers you to 210.70(A)(1) exception 1 it simply says in those areas ( not including kitchens and bathrooms) you may have a switched receptacle for lights instead of a fixed lighting outlet. To me it is clear you may not have receptacles on the countertop of a kitchen as general purpose receptacles switched for the use of lighting.

See ya after while guys.

Say do any of you know what the 2nd derivative is for [(x(2)-x(8)]to the 4th power] would be?? I've been working on it for a few days and I cant get the correct answer.
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:33 PM   #30
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Well I'm just not seeing that logic to the language in that section. To me this is saying I may have a switched receptacle for light(s) in lieu of the light fixture for lighting in those areas. I don't see it as you must have a lighting fixture then you can have a switched receptacle. In all my years you could have a switched receptacle with the switch located at the entry to the room instead of a switched light fixture. So I agree that the kitchen requires at least one switched overhead light fixture a switched receptacle for lights is allowed as long as it isn't a kitchen or bath. There are thousands of older homes like this though I will admit it isn't a common practice to have one or the other anymore in those areas outside the kitchen and bath. I can't even remember how long that code section has remained unchanged. This is an exception to the fixed light fixture be it overhead or a sconce or whatever in other than kitchens and baths.. It says I may do that if it isn't a kitchen sabc. I also don't see where it mentions it's ok in a kitchen if it is a single or a duplex.

I'll keep reading but I am having some difficulty getting wrapped around this logic. You may well be correct but I have got to look at it a little longer before I decide that is the case.
I think the "in lieu of" makes it clear. Its seems to me that in other than kitchens and bathrooms, you can forgo an overhead light, as long as you have a switched receptacle.

This DOES NOT forbid a switched receptacle in those areas either. It simply makes it clear that a switched receptacle cannot be the only source of lighting there.

The single receptacle makes the outlet dedicated to one purpose. That way once you plug your cabinet light in, there is no way to use the same outlet for an appliance. Like in your basement, when you plug the freezer into a single receptacle, you avoid the need for GFCI protection.

A single receptacle on a switched lighting circuit, dedicated for the purpose of fixed under cabinet lighting, doesn't need GFCI protection and can be located on the countertop.

If you ask me if it should be done, of if I would do it, that's a different story.

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