Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-12-2012, 05:00 PM   #1
Member
 
analogmusicman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: colorado springs
Posts: 591
Share |
Default

is this legal?


while working on my "baseboard heater" I came across this rather strange (to me anyway) wiring setup. bear in mind that my house was built in 1979 so I know codes have changed since then:
the heater needs 230 v so in order to get that to the thermostat,the electrician back then ran a regular length of #12 Romex (three wire-black,white and copper ground) with hot on BOTH black and white. NO NEUTRAL. shouldn't there at least be a piece of black electrical tape on the white wire to tell you it's hot? (maybe code back then didn't require it?) and what about the no neutral deal? doesn't every electrical circuit need a neutral? or are the rules different when dealing with 230?

tnx,

analogmusicman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 05:04 PM   #2
Licensed electrician
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,501
Default

is this legal?


Straight 240 circuits do not need a neutral. The other hot leg is the return path.

The cable you described is called xx-2, not xx-3. XX-3 cable would have a red conductor in addition to the blk/wht and ground.

Before the code was dumbed down it was understood that a white hooked to a breaker or 240 appliance was a hot. Now it needs to be re-identified as a hot. You can use tape or a magic marker to identify it as a hot. Typically black or red are used. Do not use green.

__________________
Answers based on the National Electrical Code. Local amendments may apply. Check with your local building officials.
Jim Port is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jim Port For This Useful Post:
plummen (01-14-2012)
Old 01-12-2012, 05:07 PM   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 25
Default

is this legal?


Quote:
Originally Posted by analogmusicman
while working on my "baseboard heater" I came across this rather strange (to me anyway) wiring setup. bear in mind that my house was built in 1979 so I know codes have changed since then:
the heater needs 230 v so in order to get that to the thermostat,the electrician back then ran a regular length of #12 Romex (three wire-black,white and copper ground) with hot on BOTH black and white. NO NEUTRAL. shouldn't there at least be a piece of black electrical tape on the white wire to tell you it's hot? (maybe code back then didn't require it?) and what about the no neutral deal? doesn't every electrical circuit need a neutral? or are the rules different when dealing with 230?

tnx,
Often with 240v neutrals are not used, it depends on the application. As far as making the white wire in your 12/2 as a"hot" some guys are lazy, or some just believe only electricians should be working on electrical work, and an electrician would most likey know 120 vs 240. Codes are pretty much the same but they do change the code book every 3 years.
Knauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 10:07 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cairns Australia
Posts: 2,430
Default

is this legal?


With the american type 115v/120v systom,
The only way to get 230v/240v is to wire across two
differentily phased hots. 2 x 115 = 230.

So with type of set up you dont use the normal neutral.
You only use it for the lower 115v supply.

If you do a read up on split supplies you will learn more
about how and why.
dmxtothemax is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2012, 10:22 PM   #5
" Euro " electrician
 
frenchelectrican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: WI & France { in France for now }
Posts: 5,369
Default

is this legal?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmxtothemax View Post
With the american type 115v/120v systom,
The only way to get 230v/240v is to wire across two
differentily phased hots. 2 x 115 = 230.

So with type of set up you dont use the normal neutral.
You only use it for the lower 115v supply.

If you do a read up on split supplies you will learn more
about how and why.

Dnxtothemax.,

If you did see 240/480 volt single phase split system in your area ? If so it the same way what the Americanie system been like that for long time and I know you will ask me about European side do we have them as well ? the answer is Oui but not super widespread most case they useally limited to either 80 or 160 amp CU's anything else will have CT-CU unit ( Current Transfomer Customer Unit )


Now for other readers I know in many time with older 240 volts circuits with XX-2 NM cables the black is common used for hot and white manytime it is used for second hot conductor and they did change the code not too long ago not sure which cycle it was in effect I belive it was 02 or 05 NEC verison.

That one thing with older circuit it will be wise to make sure you are prepared to see some of the 240 volts circuits some will use the neutral et some don't use it. ( Electrique motours et Electricque Heaters is most common to use straight 240 volts sans neutral )

Merci,
Marc
__________________
The answer will be based on NEC ( National Electrical code ) or CEC ( Cananda Electrical code ) or ECF ( Electrique Code France )
frenchelectrican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 04:44 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cairns Australia
Posts: 2,430
Default

is this legal?


No we do not use split system here in Australia !
In Australia it is either single phase,
because the mains is higher here 240v,
there is no problem getting enough power for whole house.
Most service lines to houses are 80 to 100a.

OR

The other option is three phase,
Not many single houses use three phase,
But you can get it if you have machinery that needs it.
Occasionally some houses with big A/C systoms use it.

But mostly its single phase to most houses.

It is very rare to see a house with two phases,
But some of older houses that used a lot of power did have it.
But it is not split system !
It is just two phases from the available three phases.
So mostly Australia is either single phase or three phase.
No split systems !
dmxtothemax is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 06:25 PM   #7
Member
 
analogmusicman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: colorado springs
Posts: 591
Default

is this legal?


hmm...you mean your outlets have 230v on them? curious,do Aussies drive on the wrong side of the road too?

tnx,
analogmusicman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 07:10 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nashua, NH, USA
Posts: 6,926
Default

is this legal?


Straight 208 volt (208 volt only) equipment is wired up to a 120/208 volt 3 phase supply in the same manner that straight 240 volt equipment is wired up to a 120/240 volt single phase supply. Namely you may use an ordinary 2 conductor Romex cable with black and white conductors connected to 2 hot legs respectively.
__________________
Stop wasting time re-adjusting the pattern. Have several lawn sprinklers, one for each pattern.

Last edited by AllanJ; 01-13-2012 at 07:16 PM.
AllanJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 07:33 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cairns Australia
Posts: 2,430
Default

is this legal?


The standard power point (recepticule) in Australia has 240v.
Technically it is stated as 230v to conform to europeon standards.
But because the standard has some variances,
our 240v still sits within the tolerences.
But it is closer to 240 than 230,
in real life it is very close to 240 most of the time.

We do not have any 120v at all !
Its either 240v single phase or 440v for three phase.

And yes you do drive on the wrong side of the road !
dmxtothemax is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2012, 08:14 PM   #10
Member
 
analogmusicman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: colorado springs
Posts: 591
Default

is this legal?


once again,America leads the way! heck,even the Canadians follow us.

tnx,
analogmusicman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2012, 12:46 AM   #11
" Euro " electrician
 
frenchelectrican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: WI & France { in France for now }
Posts: 5,369
Default

is this legal?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmxtothemax View Post
The standard power point (recepticule) in Australia has 240v.
Technically it is stated as 230v to conform to europeon standards.
But because the standard has some variances,
our 240v still sits within the tolerences.
But it is closer to 240 than 230,
in real life it is very close to 240 most of the time.

We do not have any 120v at all !
Its either 240v single phase or 440v for three phase.

And yes you do drive on the wrong side of the road !
We have couple spot still running with 127 volt network but that is about history in Paris .,,

For the voltage you are correct it is 240 volts line to netural only but for Line to Line it will be 415 volts.

Try 240 X 1.73 ( sq root of 3 ) = 415 volts not 440 volts.

As far for our driving we do drive on the right side of the road the same as North Americiane side.

Oh the last thing what you mention about split phase .,, nice try I have a very good freind live in New Zealand he work for POCO so he did gave me a straight facts on them.

The 240/480 volts split phase that is used on few farms in New Zealand and few spots in Aussie area as well ( this part is allready confirmed with Aussie POCO personalle which I do get a hold of them from time to time and that person is my other freind as well )

The reason due some area it cost too much to bring out three phase supply for small to med motour size so they will bring out 480 volts for motours and 240 volts for household system.

And OUI I have see 480 volts 50 HZ single phase motours as well.

Merci,
Marc
__________________
The answer will be based on NEC ( National Electrical code ) or CEC ( Cananda Electrical code ) or ECF ( Electrique Code France )
frenchelectrican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2012, 12:21 AM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cairns Australia
Posts: 2,430
Default

is this legal?


I suppose ther could be a small number of split supplies,
But they very rare, I have not come across any.

Just like the two phase supplies to houses,
Very rare,have only come across one or two.

But they are usually not split supplies as you know them,
They are usually just two of the available three phases.

And yes you are correct it is 415v! not 440v,
due to phase difference of only 120 not 180
as you would find in split system.

But split system very rare !

dmxtothemax is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Legal questions - just looking for thoughts Steeler99 Off Topic 2 07-09-2011 11:26 AM
Is it legal to double lug a fused cut off switch? Red Squirrel Electrical 12 05-03-2011 05:18 PM
Legal weight limit for my dump truck dnh082461 Building & Construction 4 11-04-2010 06:45 PM
Wow, I got money coming beenthere Off Topic 12 01-21-2010 01:28 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.