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Old 07-08-2008, 07:27 PM   #1
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


hi all,

wondering if i can get some feedback on the proposed kitchen wiring plan. for installation in ontario canada.

thanks!
Knucklez


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Old 07-08-2008, 09:15 PM   #2
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


Receptacles beside sink need to be GFCI. No point in use 12/3. Use 12/2 and put 20 amp T slot GFCI receptacle. Much cheaper than a double pole GFCI breaker that would be required for split receptacles. The two receptacles on either side of the sink can be on the same circuit.
Remaining counter receptacles can remain 15 amp split circuits but no point in using #12wire. #14 is good enough.

The blue lighting circuit cabling won't work as drawn. you need 14/3 between the three ways. You need another feed to the s1 there will be no neutral in the 3way switch cable. You don't need 14/3 to the stove/range hood.

Fridge is good as separate circuit is required.

Here is a link that may be useful. Go to the Techincal FAQ link on the right side of the main page.

http://www.esainspection.net/

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Old 07-08-2008, 10:33 PM   #3
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


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Remaining counter receptacles can remain 15 amp split circuits but no point in using #12wire. #14 is good enough.

Fridge is good as separate circuit is required.
Fridge isn't required to have its own circuit, and small appliance circuits (counter receptacles) are required to be 20A
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:55 PM   #4
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


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Fridge isn't required to have its own circuit, and small appliance circuits (counter receptacles) are required to be 20A
Although the outlets themselves do not need to be 20 amp outlets, 15 amp outlets are fine, but there must be at minimum 2 20 amp small appliance/above counter circuits that cannot be tied to anything else (dishwasher, lights, disposal, etc).

Did you intend for the kitchen light to be controlled at more than two locations? What was the intent on running the 14/3 to the area by the stove?
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:12 AM   #5
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


Careful guys the op is from Canada....the receptacle requirements differ from the USA. Joed is a seasoned electrician from the same area as the op.
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Old 07-09-2008, 12:22 AM   #6
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Careful guys the op is from Canada....the receptacle requirements differ from the USA. Joed is a seasoned electrician from the same area as the op.

Ah, I had not noticed that. Thanks for the heads up stubbie.

I am still curious about the Op's intent with the kitchen lighting circuit. My post earlier about the outlet circuits is for the US, so probably is not the same for canada.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:41 AM   #7
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


In Ontario (I think all of Canada) you must match the receptacle to the breaker. 20 amp circuit requires a 20 amp T slot receptacle. Fridge MUST be on a dedicated circuit. Receptacles within 1 meter of sink need GFCI. Others do not need GFCI(this is different than NEC). Lighting must be on 1 amp circuit. Only 12 outlets permitted per circuit 15 or 20 amp.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:08 PM   #8
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


hi joed,

thanks for the comments regarding ontario canada code.
i was confused about single supply vs. split receptical vs gfci vs. gfci breaker... but your solution, run two 20A breakers to two individual 20A T slot GFCI receptacle, one on each side of the sink. yes this is good as it is also confirmed as code by the link you provided, see specifically this doc

two questions:

1)
joed, you said the GFCI can be on the same circuit.. so that means ONE 20A T-GFCI with connection to its load terminal of one other 20A T standard duplex (this 2nd one doesn't have to also be GFCI right?), all supplied from a single pole 20A breaker. the idea is that the single GFCI receptical is protecting both recepticals on either side of the sink and thus can save cost of buying two GFCI recepticals.

2)
the reason that the two GFCI protected recepticals on either side of the sink (and also the standard 15A duplix that are adjacent on the left side counter top) can be on the same circuit is because "The adjacency requirement as stated in Rules 26-722(b) and 26-726(3) has been deemed to offer no added safety value to an installation. The Canadian Electrical Code has deleted the adjacency requirement in the next edition." is this true?

Comments:
i will change split receptical on kitchen counter to 14/3.

i do have 14/3 between the switches for lights shown in blue. but that is a type-O to the range hood which should just be 14/2. i'll double check this in detail to make sure that this lighting would actually work, i drew that network rather hastilly

after i get this cleared up i'll re-draw the circuit and post.

Knucklez

Last edited by Knucklez; 07-10-2008 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:15 PM   #9
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


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you must match the receptacle to the breaker..
That is written in the Canadian Electrical Code and I beleive that is differnt then in the states.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:41 PM   #10
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Question 1
You must be reading in the 2002 code. I looked in my 2006 code book and I could not find anything about adjacent plugs being on seperate cirrcuits. That rule must have been deleted in the 2006 code book because I can't find it. I have admit I did not know that.

Your comment about 12/3 vs 14/3 shows that you don't totaly understand a 3 wire circuit. In a proper 3 wire circuit the neutral carries the differnce between the two hots, so if one circuit is useing 13A and the other circuit is useing 10A the neutral will only have 3A on it. If done incorrectly in the above situation the neutral would carry 23A which would over load #14 as well as your number #12. If your worried about the neutral being overload you would have to run #10 because the most the neutral will carry will be 30A

Now your probably wonder what the correct way and the incorrect way are. The correct way is to make sure each hot of the 3 wire set is on a different phase of the panel, so red to phase 1 and black to phase 2. You have to watch this on most panels because it is very easy to put a two pole breaker in a panel and have it only on phase a or phase b. You will not notice that it is wrong because you are dealing with two 120V plugs and both will work just fine. Now if you hook up your stove like this with both hots on the same phase it will take your food a very long time to heat up becase anything requireing 240V will not work.

So after all that, save your money(copper is not cheap) and buy #14 for your counter rectipcals. Make sure you get the biggest device box you can because in the first plug in the line with your 14/3 you will have to make a joint with a pigtail on your red and black and I would do the same for the neutral but that is not required.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:46 PM   #11
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


darren, thank you i learned something about phasing i didn't fully appreciate until your post. i'll take a look at my 100A service cutler hammer breaker panel and see if i can spot phase 1 & phase 2.
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Old 07-10-2008, 04:47 PM   #12
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


touched up the drawing.. i'm still a little bit confused regarding kitchen sink receptacles as per my post above.

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Old 07-10-2008, 08:12 PM   #13
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


Kitchen sink receptacles are not consider to adjacent and can be on the same circuit.
I am not sure you can put two split 15 amp receptacles on the same circuit. I think you need a separate circuit for each one.
The blue lighting circuit can't be made to work with the wires in the drawing. I think I would run power to the light. Then 14/3 to the switch by the door. This will give you power, neutral(for porch light) and switch leg back to light. Then run 14/3 from door switch back it inside switch.
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:22 PM   #14
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Kitchen Wiring Plan - ok?


ok good, then kitchen sink receptacles are done.

two split 15A recetacles are always on the same circuit (where that circuit meets in the service panel at by a double pole 15A breaker, being sure each pole is on a sperate phase as per darren's comments). this is normal.

the question is if the installed recepticals can be adjacent...

here is what i read in at ESA (see message #8 for direct link)

"The adjacency requirement as stated in Rules 26-722(b) and 26-726(3) has been deemed to offer no added safety value to an installation. The Canadian Electrical Code has deleted the adjacency requirement in the next edition."

so.. i think the kitchen counter split receptacles shown in light green are OK. you?
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:38 PM   #15
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I thought only one 15 amp was permitted per circuit but I found in my 1999 code where it says " no more than two split receptacles shall be connected to a multiwire branch circuit" 26-704

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