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Old 11-19-2010, 11:02 AM   #1
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


Let me see if I'm understanding the code requirements correctly, and please correct me where I'm wrong. In a previous thread I was asking about fixing what I had, and in the end I'm concluding that a bowl of spaghetti with an extension cord is closer to being to code than what I already have, so for all practical purposes I'm just starting from scratch.

This is a galley kitchen, i.e. the east side is gas range, 3' of counter, refrigerator. On the west side is a countertop with a sink in the middle and the dishwasher underneath.

1) Overhead lighting will be on a circuit with other lighting for the first floor
2) The east side counter outlet with GFCI, included in this circuit may be the refrigerator and gas range (I might do a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator, undecided for now.
3) Dedicated circuit for a plug for the microwave (this is an already existing circuit, so I don't need to do anything)
4) The west side counter has 2 outlets and is 9' long, I will need to add GFCI, remove non-kitchen receptacles from this circuit.
5) Dishwasher and garbage disposal both plug in, so I'm thinking a receptacle with one side switched for the disposal.

Can dishwasher and disposal be on the same circuit? Does this circuit require GFCI?

I think it might be worth a subpanel for this, it will make it easier when I eventually move and upgrade the main service panel.

Another question: where should I put the exhaust hood fan/light?

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Old 11-19-2010, 11:44 AM   #2
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


Let me pose a question on the question about the dishwasher/disposal:

Searching for the answer I've read it recommended that they are seperate circuits... So would this be allowed:

2 15A circuits with a 14-3 wire, top outlet for the disposal is switched and uses the black hot wire bottom outlet for the dishwasher uses the red hot, white connects to the neutral for both.

And I'm saying 14-3 because I have cable on hand, if I could do both on one circuit I'd use a 20A circuit and 12-2 cable which also I have on hand. I don't have 12-3 on hand, and cash flow is restricting me from buying much more new materials for a couple weeks.


Last edited by WillK; 11-19-2010 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:15 PM   #3
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


You would need them to be used with 12/3 but I would separate them myself, as far as receptacle wise, I'll explain later. Also they don't need to be GFI protected nor the Fridge since they are NOT considered small appliances. You do need two separated 20AMP GFCI protected branch circuits, the Fridge can be on either one, or dedicated. For the DW and GD, I'd still go with 20AMP to be safe. Also you could use a 15AMP switch for the GD, but I wouldn't use the 59 cent ones, I'd go more towards a pro grade. You could still switch it like top half being HOT and bottom by switch, but if the cord would be under the sink, you can also go with a single rather than a duplex. That's my thoughts.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:48 PM   #4
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


How do I size the circuit breaker if I went with putting in a sub-panel on all this? Is this going to need a 100A panel, it's coming off a 100A main or can I go smaller?
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:41 PM   #5
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


Don't think so much in terms of load with the panel but how easy it will be to do things in the future if you have more circuits to work with going forward. I think that a kitchen should have at least 3 lights for circuits and the extra cost is minimal - might as well do it right. An island light should be on its own circuit and have its own dimmer control. Same for under cabinet lighting. Main light needs to be fluorescent by code so it is often done on its own circuit (and the fixture is often changed out later). You do not want a toaster oven tripping the breaker for the refrigerator and so forth. Most kitchens in the country were built before the advent of toaster ovens, express machines, garbage disposals, microwave ovens, cabinet refers, dishwashers, bread machines, wine coolers, and the like and have too few circuits.
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Old 11-22-2010, 09:11 PM   #6
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


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Originally Posted by Phillysun View Post
Main light needs to be fluorescent by code so it is often done on its own circuit (and the fixture is often changed out later)
That must be a local code.....
In 14 years & 2 houses I've yet to have a single lighting circuit trip
I also never had one trip in any other house/apt I rented
Having 3 light circuits for the kitchen is just a waste of wire unless its a huge kitchen & a ton of lights
My kitchen lighting uses a total of about 125w w/CFL & LED

My panel is fairly close to the kitchen, so I did not install a sub
I did put my fridge (rated 11a) on dedicated 15a circuit
I also have 3 small appliance circuits(SABC), since I have an 1100w counter top microwave
SABC must be GFCI protected
Electricians on here have indicated there is a Max sub that can be drawn off a 100a panel, and that it is less then 100a

I only run 12-2 for outlets...all 20a, you must have (2) 20a SABC
I prefer not to run 12-3 & MWBC - shared neutral

Dishwasher & disposal can be on the same circuit
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Old 11-22-2010, 10:38 PM   #7
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


I haven't seen a toaster with a switchmode power supply, nor a microwave containing an electronic ballast... these are the two things I most often see referenced in arguments against multiwire circuits. Most large kitchen appliances don't do weird phase things, so I use multiwires everywhere I can.

A 100A subpanel off a 100A panel doesn't always make sense, but I do not believe it is against code. Ultimately it's no different than a feedthrough panel with another chained off of it, there's just an extra breaker in the way.



Likewise, I haven't ever tripped a lighting circuit, and I'm the infamous guy who uses one 15A circuit per floor for lights.
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:07 AM   #8
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If that link was really supposed to be what you say it was, perhaps you goofed up.
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:33 AM   #9
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


Quote:
Originally Posted by WillK
Let me see if I'm understanding the code requirements correctly, and please correct me where I'm wrong. In a previous thread I was asking about fixing what I had, and in the end I'm concluding that a bowl of spaghetti with an extension cord is closer to being to code than what I already have, so for all practical purposes I'm just starting from scratch.

This is a galley kitchen, i.e. the east side is gas range, 3' of counter, refrigerator. On the west side is a countertop with a sink in the middle and the dishwasher underneath.

1) Overhead lighting will be on a circuit with other lighting for the first floor
2) The east side counter outlet with GFCI, included in this circuit may be the refrigerator and gas range (I might do a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator, undecided for now.
3) Dedicated circuit for a plug for the microwave (this is an already existing circuit, so I don't need to do anything)
4) The west side counter has 2 outlets and is 9' long, I will need to add GFCI, remove non-kitchen receptacles from this circuit.
5) Dishwasher and garbage disposal both plug in, so I'm thinking a receptacle with one side switched for the disposal.

Can dishwasher and disposal be on the same circuit? Does this circuit require GFCI?

I think it might be worth a subpanel for this, it will make it easier when I eventually move and upgrade the main service panel.

Another question: where should I put the exhaust hood fan/light?
For my kitchen, I have the following circuits:

1 15 amp lighting (dining, kitchen overhead, sink light).
1 20 amp gcfi breaker for 3 small appliance outlets (1 by the stove, 1 on the left of sink, one on the right of sink).
1 20 amp convenience circuit (hallway, 2 outlets in dining room, 1 for the fridge, stove 110 (gas stove), 1 baseboard in kitchen).
1 15 amp for disposal.

It is a very small home and the kitchen meets the needs for us. If wiring needs changed, everything runs into junction boxes in the basement, since it is a very old house.
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Old 11-23-2010, 07:55 AM   #10
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


I would not run a subpanel for as few circuits as you are talking about. I would plan to leave enough cable near the panel so the cables can transition into the new panel.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:31 AM   #11
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


1) Overhead lighting will be on a circuit with other lighting for the first floor
2) The east side counter outlet with GFCI
3) Dedicated circuit for a plug for the microwave (this is an already existing circuit, so I don't need to do anything)
4) The west side counter has 2 outlets and is 9' long, I will need to add GFCI, remove non-kitchen receptacles from this circuit.
5) Dishwasher
6) garbage disposal both plug in
7) exhaust fan
8) refrigerator
One problem is I have 6 open spots on my main panel, and I also plan to add 3 circuits for rewiring the second floor. I probably eliminate 2 or 3 existing circuits with all of this. It adds up to I don't have enough open slots, and if time and money was no object I wouldn't need the subpanel if I did the whole house at once including the relocated service panel with the upgrade to 200A, but time and money is an object after all.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:16 PM   #12
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


Do you have a way of shutting off power to the 100a panel?
IE a 100a disconnect ahead of the panel ?
Then you could install a 200a panel & it would still be fed w/100a until you are ready to upgrade

Other possibility is put the new 200a panel in where you want it & connect that as a sub for now
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Old 11-23-2010, 03:17 PM   #13
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Kitchen rewiring circuits


Actually... I like that second idea, that's pretty damn good!

The first idea doesn't actually fit, part of the eventual plans for upgrading and moving the panel is that I want to get the panel out of our bedroom where it currently is located.

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