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Old 05-03-2012, 09:43 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Then why are you telling people to use the 80/20 rule for figuring load for a DW or GD, or any other household appliance? Every consumer appliance out there makes it simple by telling people what the min & max amp is, so they do not have to do the calculations. And as for the 50/50 rule for existing circuits, I can tell you first hand that what I see on a day to day use for my home, we do not even come close to using even 5 amps on most circuits. Only ones that I ever see come close is the dryer & wash machine when they are running. Other than that, I do not even come close to the circuit rating of the breakers protecting them.

If I had you as my electrician, when I redid my house, I would have ended up with a 200 amp panel, for only having to need 45-55 amps use, for maybe two days out of the week.
80/20 rule? As for wiring your house, the service would be sized in accordance with the NEC (in effect in your area), not the Black & Decker Electrical DIY book, or a gut feeling. If it required a 200A service, so be it. One thing though, I gaurentee it would pass inspection.

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Old 05-03-2012, 06:43 PM   #47
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... I will concede that you are correct that the circuit should be sized for the nameplate rating. SO a 13.6A DW on a 15A circuit is ok.....
You're welcome.

Now the question is are you as hospitable when dealing with those whose work you are charged with inspecting?
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:01 PM   #48
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80/20 rule? As for wiring your house, the service would be sized in accordance with the NEC (in effect in your area), not the Black & Decker Electrical DIY book, or a gut feeling. If it required a 200A service, so be it. One thing though, I gaurentee it would pass inspection.
For one, I am not getting anything from some Black & Decker DIY book or gut feeling. I get my info from the NEC and experience. I do reference the drawings in the Black & Decker Complete Home Wiring guide, vs spending a couple of hours trying to find what you want on the web, unlike what you think.

Second, my area does not require inspections for home owner wiring changes, and as for panel changes, the city allows the hired electrician or electrical company to sign off without having the city come by and check their work. Great thing compared to places like Chicago. Catch is, you are trusted that you will do work in a professional manner if you are a homeowner, but that rarely happens from what I have seen in hundreds of places in this town & county.

And third, as I stated before, I would never hire you, due to you have a total misunderstanding, or tend to state what should be used in a residential application, but applying commercial thoughts.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:03 PM   #49
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And third, as I stated before, I would never hire you, due to you have a total misunderstanding, or tend to state what should be used in a residential application, but applying commercial thoughts.
when it comes to load calculations for sizing services, the nec is pretty clear on what is required. 'how much you plan on using' is irrelevant. you could have switch-operated lights in the required rooms and burn candles everywhere else, only use old-school non-electric 'appliances' in the kitchen, etc. but guess what? if you have a service, it needs to factor in 3 va per sq ft for lighting/receptacles, 1500 va for each small appliance branch circuit, etc. you could operate your home on as little as 5 amps but the service would still have to be sized per the nec rules to meet code.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:06 PM   #50
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when it comes to load calculations for sizing services, the nec is pretty clear on what is required. 'how much you plan on using' is irrelevant. you could have switch-operated lights in the required rooms and burn candles everywhere else, only use old-school non-electric 'appliances' in the kitchen, etc. but guess what? if you have a service, it needs to factor in 3 va per sq ft for lighting/receptacles, 1500 va for each small appliance branch circuit, etc. you could operate your home on as little as 5 amps but the service would still have to be sized per the nec rules to meet code.
And you are explaining this to me why? I already know that. Guess you missed the point and read into what I stated.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:17 PM   #51
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And you are explaining this to me why? I already know that. Guess you missed the point and read into what I stated.
perhaps i misinterpreted your earlier statement?

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I would have ended up with a 200 amp panel, for only having to need 45-55 amps use, for maybe two days out of the week
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:31 PM   #52
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So out of that, what size of panel do you think that I have?
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:39 PM   #53
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So out of that, what size of panel do you think that I have?
beats me, 100? 60? 400? i don't know how big your house is, what appliances are gas and which are electric, etc. code just sets minimum sizes, folks can certainly go bigger.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:46 PM   #54
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beats me, 100? 60? 400? i don't know how big your house is, what appliances are gas and which are electric, etc. code just sets minimum sizes, folks can certainly go bigger.
I have already given you a clue. Two days out of the week, I use maybe 45-55 amps. Somewhere else tonight, I stated the total square footage including my basement. I have also stated that my house has been rewired, the Kitchen has five circuits, sometime in the past, my house only had four circuits, bath has two. Also, in the past, I have stated what type of fuel I use for heating and cooking.

Also have stated the size of my a/c in another post tonight, so it is not that hard to figure it out with two parts of the clues I have given you.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:50 PM   #55
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well, i'm not going to do a bunch of detective work to try and determine how big your service is. not really sure what we are talking about anymore...
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:18 PM   #56
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Most all dishwashers do fine on a 15 amp circuit. Even with heating element in ours I don't think it draws much more than ten amps. But in our kitchen rewire that I just did I ran a 20 amp mwbc for dishwasher and future disposal. 2 20 amp small appliance circuits 1 dedicated 20 amp circuit for fridge 1 20 amp circuit for gas stove microwave and hood. Lighting is on a 15 amp circuit shared with other areas of our home. Some was code some was just for convenience so it's easy to turn something off without disturbing anything else.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:08 PM   #57
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You're welcome.

Now the question is are you as hospitable when dealing with those whose work you are charged with inspecting?
Absolutely! I routinely give out my cell phone number to contractors and encourage them to call me if they think I am wrong. My thoughts are that when I make a mistake it cost the contractor money not me. If you think I am wrong call me and tell me why. I also have no problem meeting somebody at the jobsite. SHow me what you want to do and I will tell if I will accept it. I will not design your job for you, but I will tell you if I will accept it. I would rather spend 10 min. at a job and help the contractor pass then fail him. Either way I have to go back. That way I have created an allie instead of an enemy. Contractors who I have inspected 20 years ago still call me for advice. I have no problem helping somebody who wants to do it right. I guess which is why I frequent here and ET, and a few other forums. My problem lies with some of the posers on this site who lack any real world experience but have no problem expelling their "expertise" to unsuspecting DIY'rs who don't know enough to see through the dribble. I encourage the visitors to this site to read the "About me" pages of our "experts" before taking their advice. If they can't take the time to post their credentials then our visitors should move on.
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All responses based on the 2011 NEC.
If you live in New Jersey click here. All other states click here.
Please check with local, county and state officials as laws may vary.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:31 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
For one, I am not getting anything from some Black & Decker DIY book or gut feeling. I get my info from the NEC and experience. I do reference the drawings in the Black & Decker Complete Home Wiring guide, vs spending a couple of hours trying to find what you want on the web, unlike what you think.

Second, my area does not require inspections for home owner wiring changes, and as for panel changes, the city allows the hired electrician or electrical company to sign off without having the city come by and check their work. Great thing compared to places like Chicago. Catch is, you are trusted that you will do work in a professional manner if you are a homeowner, but that rarely happens from what I have seen in hundreds of places in this town & county.

And third, as I stated before, I would never hire you, due to you have a total misunderstanding, or tend to state what should be used in a residential application, but applying commercial thoughts.
1. What experience?

2. Trust me I would never work for you and you couldn't afford me.

3. Huh?

Finally, these last few posts contribute nothing to this thread.
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All responses based on the 2011 NEC.
If you live in New Jersey click here. All other states click here.
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:19 AM   #59
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1. What experience?
Over 30 years, including Military

Quote:
2. Trust me I would never work for you and you couldn't afford me.
As already stated, I would never hire you, because of who you are and your atitude, and not required for my area, unless the drop falls off my house, then I have to call an electrician, otherwise, a homeowner can perform all electrical work in their home, where I live.
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:51 AM   #60
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look, if a homeowner can do their own work and sizes the service based on the nec, more power to them. a homeowner who does their own work and sizes the service based on what they plan on using, ignoring the nec requirements, is not okay. this presumes the homeowner is bound by nec requirements and not living on an island in the ocean or anything like that.

i'm not suggesting this is what you have done, gregzoll, but your posts imply it. reminds me of the whole 'it is okay to bury splices behind the wall since they won't fail if installed properly' discussion. the splice could very well outlast the house but it is still not permitted by code.

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