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sirsparksalot 04-29-2012 06:47 PM

kitchen receptacles
 
New appliances coming in. No change in service, so I believe that existing wiring can be considered grandfathered. Please correct me if wrong. BTW: we're under 2005 code in my locality, but I go with 2008.

Currently, the kitchen is wired all 15-amp except for non-counter-top receptacles. (I know, opposite, and wrong, but that's the way it is)

  • Can dishwasher and disposal be on same 15 amp circuit? (This will be a new circuit, so perhaps I need to run 20-amp?)
  • Current range wiring is 3-wire on a 40 amp breaker (3-pole). Can I still utilize a 3-prong receptacle here?
  • Does the kitchen wiring have to be upgraded to provide for 2 SABC (currently, only 1), and 20 amp?

itsnotrequired 04-29-2012 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirsparksalot (Post 910439)
New appliances coming in. No change in service, so I believe that existing wiring can be considered grandfathered. Please correct me if wrong. BTW: we're under 2005 code in my locality, but I go with 2008.

Currently, the kitchen is wired all 15-amp except for non-counter-top receptacles. (I know, opposite, and wrong, but that's the way it is)

  • Can dishwasher and disposal be on same 15 amp circuit? (This will be a new circuit, so perhaps I need to run 20-amp?)
  • Current range wiring is 3-wire on a 40 amp breaker (3-pole). Can I still utilize a 3-prong receptacle here?
  • Does the kitchen wiring have to be upgraded to provide for 2 SABC (currently, only 1), and 20 amp?

for the first two items, what is the load rating of the appliances you are getting? do any of these appliances require dedicated circuits for warranty purposes? if the range is over 8.75 kw, breaker will need to be 40 amp minimum.

i don't believe the sabc circuits need to explicitly be updated per code but your municipality may require it.

electures 04-29-2012 07:59 PM

GD and DW are permitted on the same circuit but, the circuit has to sized based on the size of the loads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And the manufactures installation instructions. Most DW manufactures recommend a seperate circuit. AS for the SABC's, they shouldn't have to upgraded unless you are remodelling the kitchen. Just because you bought new appliances doesn't mean you have to rewire the entire kitchen. However, if the manfacturer recommends certain wiring you should follow it for warrenty purposes. The NEC permits using the existing wiring as long as it is the correct size for the range, but again follow the installation instructions.

kbsparky 04-29-2012 08:24 PM

It's real simple to use a 15 Amp circuit for both the disposal and dishwasher.

No need to worry about sizing the loads as described above IF you use a 3-way switch to control them both.

Here's how to do it:

Connect your incoming 15 amp line to the "common" terminal on the 3-way switch. Use a 14/3 cable to a split-wired receptacle under the sink.

Configure the switch so that when it is down, power goes to the dishwasher half of the outlet. When the switch is up, the dishwasher shuts off, and power goes to the disposal outlet.

The outlets serve as the required disconnects, so the switch is not required to have "on" and "off" marked on it.

This way, you have non-coincident loads and only have to size the circuit to the largest appliance. Very useful in existing installations.

sirsparksalot 04-29-2012 08:26 PM

Thank you, guys. Good and clear answers.

sirsparksalot 04-29-2012 08:27 PM

ooh, kb, didn't see yours; reading now :-)

sirsparksalot 04-29-2012 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbsparky (Post 910533)
Configure the switch so that when it is down, power goes to the dishwasher half of the outlet. When the switch is up, the dishwasher shuts off, and power goes to the disposal outlet.

Oh, that's very good. But, could this become confusing for the consumer if the DW is running, and they forget and turn on the disposal, the DW stops, or, in order to run the dishwasher, consumer must make sure the switch is down, AND they have to use the DW controls to start and stop? I assume, then, that normally "OFF" (nothing is running) would be down.

EDIT: I guess that's how it works in the real world anyway - lol. Is this a common practice lately?

itsnotrequired 04-29-2012 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirsparksalot (Post 910543)
Oh, that's very good. But, could this become confusing for the consumer if the DW is running, and they forget and turn on the disposal, the DW stops, or, in order to run the dishwasher, consumer must make sure the switch is down, AND they have to use the DW controls to start and stop? I assume, then, that normally "OFF" (nothing is running) would be down.

EDIT: I guess that's how it works in the real world anyway - lol. Is this a common practice lately?

reminds me of my house in chicago, where the dishwasher disconnect was a wall switch in a two gang box that also include the overhead light switch. after three times turning the dishwasher off mid-cycle, i put a piece of tape over the dishwasher switch.

:censored:

sirsparksalot 04-29-2012 10:12 PM

now, I'm trying to figure out how kb's idea is wired. Is a 3-way really required, or can a single pole work the same?

Please tell me the connections for the red, white and black of the 3-wire to the receptacle.

EDIT: Do I need two 3-way's?

Ralph III 04-29-2012 10:36 PM

If you're having to run a new circuit to the dishwasher and garbage disposal, why would you ever consider a 15amp circuit and a confounded 3 way switch? Just run a 20amp circuit, otherwise as manufacturer or local ordinance dictates, and call it a day.

Good luck

sirsparksalot 04-29-2012 10:44 PM

Sparky's idea intrigued me. And it doesn't have to be a 15 amp, I could run a 20. I just need directions to wire this. Are two 3-ways needed for this? I've looked at several diagrams, but can't find sparky's idea. Almost all of the diagrams show a single pole switch and a split receptacle, with just 2-wire cable (14-2, or 12-2).

Any of the other viewers out there?

sirsparksalot 04-29-2012 10:46 PM

BTW, in trying to diagram this (using just one 3-way), I end up with no wire to connect to the second traveler on the S3.

kevinp22 04-29-2012 10:49 PM

I would agree with ralph on running the 20 amp circuit.

I asked alot of questions about this when I was doing my rewire.

Apparantly some inspections treat it differently than others -- I read responses from "doesnt care" to "had to treat dw as continuos load". you may want to search past threads on this sub topic.

Id check with your inspector, assuming of course you pulled a permit

I put both of mine on one 20A circuit without a funky switch but my appliances have low enough draw to be within the limit even treating the DW as a continuous load

sirsparksalot 04-29-2012 11:31 PM

http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/electri...ch-386123.html

Is this how it works? I'd be using the power to switch first.

k_buz 04-29-2012 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirsparksalot (Post 910657)
BTW, in trying to diagram this (using just one 3-way), I end up with no wire to connect to the second traveler on the S3.

If you used KB's idea, it wouldn't be wired like a 3 way switch, you would be using the switch in a different manner. That being said, I suggest running a new circuit.

If you were to use KB's idea, you would put the hot wire to the dishwasher on one traveler screw, and the hot wire to the disposal to the other traveler screw, and put the incoming hot to the common. But like he said, you would not be able to hardwire the appliances.


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