Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-10-2012, 05:23 AM   #46
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,772
Share |
Default

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
Why are they stupid? They make everything safer. I'm guessing that's why they are required now
New wiring is perfectly safe. They are just more nanny state intrusion, just like tamper resistant receptacles.

__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.
Speedy Petey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 06:31 AM   #47
Resi EC
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Kansas
Posts: 479
Default

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
Why are they stupid? They make everything safer. I'm guessing that's why they are required now
IMO, they were thrown in without proper testing, basically we were/are beta testers for them. HO's surfer from nuisance tripping which in turn, us
Some appliances do not like them, plasma screen TVs for one, even our home audio companies will agree with this.
I, personal, have not seen anything thats proves AFCI do what's been claimed.
I read, somewhere, that one way to test if an AFCI breaker is doing what it's suppose to is, if an AFCI is tripping replace with normal breaker and search for smell of burning wires or smoke ... DO NOT try this at home!!
I have a home we are starting today, HO wants a sewing machine in one of the bedrooms, I told her straight up it may not work.
Gac66610 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 01:17 PM   #48
Insatiable Learner
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 152
Smile

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
New wiring is perfectly safe.
Pete you’re a licensed electrician, and I’m sure a VERY good one, but you’re post suggests that you don’t know how a AFCI breaker works. You could have a brand new house wired, and have the best inspectors check it and give it a thumbs up score of 100% for code compliancy, and it still WOULDN'T make the house safe.

Please consider some examples;

What happens when the new homeowner goes to hang a picture on their pretty new wall and pierces the wiring, and it arcs?

What happens when they put a rug over a lamp cord and it arcs?

What happenes when a wire OUTSIDE of a receptacle becomes frayed or cracked and causes an arc?

What happens when a homeowner adds too many things to their Wal-Mart surge protector, and it arcs?

I'm not picking on you or anything, I'm just saying there is real need for AFCI technology, even if it currently isn't so perfect. The fact is that arcing is tied to more than 40,000 residential fires annually. Those fires take over 350 lives, and injure over 1,400 people a year, causing over $750 million dollars in property damage. The typical household fuse or circuit breaker simply does not/can not respond to these early arcing conditions in home wiring, even if the house has brand new wiring. I'm actually glad they found a way to detect this arcing. I'm sure the technology will improve as time goes on.

I know that customers can sometimes be a pain in the wazzoo complaining about nuisance tripping, but this technology is relatively new and some people complained about the need for GFI’s when they were first introduced too. I find that Square D has the most complaints regarding nuisance tripping, so I simply stay away from them. Maybe their circuit is just too sensitive, I don’t know. I just see an awfully lot of people complaining about that brands AFCI’s. Over time this technology will get better, and the price will (hopefully) come down, and as bad as some AFCI’s may be, they are still better than traditional breakers. I just think you can’t put a price tag on someones life, and since these can save hundreds of lives each year they are worth it. Gac66610 is smart that he warns people AHEAD of time about what may happen down the road. I guess I don't understand your comment. I respectfully disagree that AFCI's are not "nanny state intrusion" but instead simply a (new) technology that has proven to save lives and property. I see that as an advancement.

At one time the common Thomas Edison fuse was a new technology, but over time each technology grows. AFCI's are just the latest version of this


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gac66610 View Post
IMO, they were thrown in without proper testing, basically we were/are beta testers for them.
The circuity just needs to be tweaked. The newer AFCI's are already better than the first ones. I see this technology as becoming a two part system, with special receptacles that monitor and communicate what's between it and the AFCI. Possibly even a AFCI receptacle to take some of the burden off of the breaker.


Quote:
Some appliances do not like them, plasma screen TVs for one, even our home audio companies will agree with this.
They did a test of AFCI's and found that even Keurig coffee makers would trip some of them. All you can do is tell home owners why they are required, and how some appliances can cause nuisance tripping (as you wisely do). If you just install them and don't explain anything then the home owners is not going to understand what is going on and blame you for the problems. I just tell people they are a necessary evil, like seat belts, and that's all you really can do until the technology advances.

Last edited by AngelArs; 09-10-2012 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Clarification
AngelArs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 03:06 PM   #49
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,772
Default

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
What happens when the new homeowner goes to hang a picture on their pretty new wall and pierces the wiring, and it arcs?
Theior fault for using too long of a nail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
What happens when they put a rug over a lamp cord and it arcs?
Again, stupidity come into play. It should be obvious that this is a BAD idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
What happenes when a wire OUTSIDE of a receptacle becomes frayed or cracked and causes an arc?
How would that be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
What happens when a homeowner adds too many things to their Wal-Mart surge protector, and it arcs?
The wally world strip trips. Or it heats up and dies. Or catches fire. Again, stupidity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
I'm not picking on you or anything, I'm just saying there is real need for AFCI technology, even if it currently isn't so perfect.
I'll respectfully disagree that there is a "real NEED" for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
The fact is that arcing is tied to more than 40,000 residential fires annually. Those fires take over 350 lives, and injure over 1,400 people a year, causing over $750 million dollars in property damage. The typical household fuse or circuit breaker simply does not/can not respond to these early arcing conditions in home wiring, even if the house has brand new wiring.
And I'll say that I would bet that a majority of those fires are 100% avoidable if people would just THINK. Thing is we are too lazy to THINK, and we want what we want WHEN we WANT IT!



I'm a damn good electrician, and I am also very into technology and new things. This is just not one of them I am afraid.
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.
Speedy Petey is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Speedy Petey For This Useful Post:
frenchelectrican (09-10-2012), jbfan (09-10-2012), stickboy1375 (09-10-2012)
Old 09-10-2012, 06:21 PM   #50
Resi EC
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Kansas
Posts: 479
Default

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
Pete youre a licensed electrician, and Im sure a VERY good one, but youre post suggests that you dont know how a AFCI breaker works. You could have a brand new house wired, and have the best inspectors check it and give it a thumbs up score of 100% for code compliancy, and it still WOULDN'T make the house safe.

Please consider some examples;

What happens when the new homeowner goes to hang a picture on their pretty new wall and pierces the wiring, and it arcs?

What happens when they put a rug over a lamp cord and it arcs?

What happenes when a wire OUTSIDE of a receptacle becomes frayed or cracked and causes an arc?

What happens when a homeowner adds too many things to their Wal-Mart surge protector, and it arcs?

I'm not picking on you or anything, I'm just saying there is real need for AFCI technology, even if it currently isn't so perfect. The fact is that arcing is tied to more than 40,000 residential fires annually. Those fires take over 350 lives, and injure over 1,400 people a year, causing over $750 million dollars in property damage. The typical household fuse or circuit breaker simply does not/can not respond to these early arcing conditions in home wiring, even if the house has brand new wiring. I'm actually glad they found a way to detect this arcing. I'm sure the technology will improve as time goes on.

I know that customers can sometimes be a pain in the wazzoo complaining about nuisance tripping, but this technology is relatively new and some people complained about the need for GFIs when they were first introduced too. I find that Square D has the most complaints regarding nuisance tripping, so I simply stay away from them. Maybe their circuit is just too sensitive, I dont know. I just see an awfully lot of people complaining about that brands AFCIs. Over time this technology will get better, and the price will (hopefully) come down, and as bad as some AFCIs may be, they are still better than traditional breakers. I just think you cant put a price tag on someones life, and since these can save hundreds of lives each year they are worth it. Gac66610 is smart that he warns people AHEAD of time about what may happen down the road. I guess I don't understand your comment. I respectfully disagree that AFCI's are not "nanny state intrusion" but instead simply a (new) technology that has proven to save lives and property. I see that as an advancement.

At one time the common Thomas Edison fuse was a new technology, but over time each technology grows. AFCI's are just the latest version of this



The circuity just needs to be tweaked. The newer AFCI's are already better than the first ones. I see this technology as becoming a two part system, with special receptacles that monitor and communicate what's between it and the AFCI. Possibly even a AFCI receptacle to take some of the burden off of the breaker.



They did a test of AFCI's and found that even Keurig coffee makers would trip some of them. All you can do is tell home owners why they are required, and how some appliances can cause nuisance tripping (as you wisely do). If you just install them and don't explain anything then the home owners is not going to understand what is going on and blame you for the problems. I just tell people they are a necessary evil, like seat belts, and that's all you really can do until the technology advances.
Careful, you're starting to sound like a sales rep

I never stated that I liked them, they only get installed because its in the NEC, and inspectors look for them. I agree, when GFCI's were being used more and more, we had a lot of trouble with the end users' appliances tripping them, now that they are more common place, less trouble.
AFCI came out in 1999, I think, had some trouble not much, but when, what 2005?, the combination type were introduced OMG, they sucked from the wrong end of the straw. There are many provinces that has amended 210.12 out completely, I also work in some of those areas. (hope it 210.12 didn't look )
Gac66610 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 07:16 PM   #51
Insatiable Learner
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 152
Post

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
Theior fault for using too long of a nail.

Again, stupidity come into play.
So what is your point, that it is OK if someone gets hurt or even dies just because they not an electrical genius? Not everyone can know everything about everything. This may be one of those topics that they don't know about. I think death is kind of harsh just because someone didn't happen to know something about wiring. From your post you literally think that if an innocent person buys an old house, and unbeknownst to them their old wiring causes an arc, which causes a fire that kills them, that's OK. All I can say to that is wow

Quote:
And I'll say that I would bet that a majority of those fires are 100% avoidable if people would just THINK.
A "majority" doesn't = all. So by your own admission some of those fires have nothing to do with thinking (like hidden old wiring on someones house). I agree 100% with you that some people can be really stupid at times, but where we differ is that I don't think they should get a death sentence for it, or lose the roof over their head because of it. What's common sense to you or I may not be so obvious to them. If technology can save a persons life or property, I think that's a good thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gac66610 View Post
Careful, you're starting to sound like a sales rep
LOL

Quick question; has anyone ever seen a tandem or dual circuit AFCI breaker?
AngelArs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 07:44 PM   #52
Resi EC
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Kansas
Posts: 479
Default

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
Quick question; has anyone ever seen a tandem or dual circuit AFCI breaker?
No, I have not, but I have heard since GE did away with the GFCI part of the breaker, I was told we could use them with MWBC with handle ties. I don't use MWBC so I have not tried this.

Now, you can see my confusion when you show up with that link,(which I printed off), and I do have my sales rep calling on.

I have a builder who is building some homes in our county, our county has no, 0, nada, building codes, which he in turn told me NOT to put AFCI's in. Even though I don't like them I called our states fire marshals' office, which, I found out that Kansas has a state wide minimum code requirement (2006 IRC) no amendments, so AFCI's are being installed. Hard to believe I would fight for something I don't like.
Gac66610 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 07:55 PM   #53
Insatiable Learner
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 152
Smile

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gac66610 View Post
Now, you can see my confusion when you show up with that link,(which I printed off), and I do have my sales rep calling on.
Oh I almost forgot Here is the list of 5mA GFCI/AFCI breakers from Eaton Cutler-Hammer

BR115AFGF - BR 1 FIREGUARD AFCI With 5 ma GFCI 1 Pole 15 Amp

BR120AFGF - BR 1 FIREGUARD AFCI With 5 ma GFCI 1 Pole 20 Amp

BR215AFGF - BR 1 FIREGUARD AFCI with 5ma GFCI 2 pole 15 amp 240V

BR220AFGF - BR 1 FIREGUARD AFCI With 5 ma GFCI, 2 pole, 20 amp 240V
AngelArs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 08:09 PM   #54
Resi EC
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Kansas
Posts: 479
Default

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Thanks, just faxed that list to my whole sale shop, no they're not open but they'll get it first thing in the morning.
Gac66610 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 08:15 PM   #55
Licensed Electrical Cont.
 
Speedy Petey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,772
Default

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
Oh I almost forgot Here is the list of 5mA GFCI/AFCI breakers from Eaton Cutler-Hammer

BR115AFGF - BR 1” FIREGUARD AFCI With 5 ma GFCI 1 Pole 15 Amp

BR120AFGF - BR 1” FIREGUARD AFCI With 5 ma GFCI 1 Pole 20 Amp

BR215AFGF - BR 1” FIREGUARD AFCI with 5ma GFCI 2 pole 15 amp 240V

BR220AFGF - BR 1” FIREGUARD AFCI With 5 ma GFCI, 2 pole, 20 amp 240V
Good luck with that. Every place I see either says out of stock or "call for availability".
Those were listed in the 2005 catalog and are pretty much non-existent now. If you find them let me know.

Also, what about combination AFCIs? Wouldn't those AFGF's be non-complaint since they are not combination AFCI's?
__________________
Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC. If you're on the '14 already I feel sorry for you.
Speedy Petey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2012, 08:19 PM   #56
Member
 
kevinp22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 323
Default

Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelArs View Post
Oh I almost forgot Here is the list of 5mA GFCI/AFCI breakers from Eaton Cutler-Hammer

BR115AFGF - BR 1 FIREGUARD AFCI With 5 ma GFCI 1 Pole 15 Amp

BR120AFGF - BR 1 FIREGUARD AFCI With 5 ma GFCI 1 Pole 20 Amp

BR215AFGF - BR 1 FIREGUARD AFCI with 5ma GFCI 2 pole 15 amp 240V

BR220AFGF - BR 1 FIREGUARD AFCI With 5 ma GFCI, 2 pole, 20 amp 240V
we were both right. i hace cutler hammer CH. BR products seem to be more widespread even though everyone tells me CH is top of the line

kevinp22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GFCI, basements and receptacles (revisited) whatrymes Electrical 2 05-22-2011 12:45 AM
Kitchen GFCI with 12/3 feed zapped Electrical 17 10-23-2010 10:15 AM
kitchen gfci jce Electrical 11 07-28-2010 07:11 AM
Problem with GFCI Outlets in Kitchen mkrawitz Electrical 13 04-14-2010 08:35 PM
GFCI between porch receptacles Thurman Electrical 4 08-19-2009 12:40 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.