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Old 09-09-2012, 07:04 PM   #31
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Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


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Right, GE use to have 40ma GFCI protection, IF you had a ground touching the grounded conductor, it would trip the breaker when a load was applied.
A real hair-puller when you turn the light, or fan on, and it trips the breaker.
Someone being lazy pushing the receptacle in allowing the ground and grounded wire to make contact
I used to rely on that when doing my wiring project. with no load applied on the circuit, i would touch the neutral and ground together, listen for the click of the breaker tripping, and resumed wiring. saved me a trip to the box. wonder if that was dangerous?

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Old 09-09-2012, 07:06 PM   #32
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there had been a product that had 5 ma gfci and 1st generation AFCI protection, but it was discontinued.
Nope, still in their current catalog, in both 15 and 20 amp versions.

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I believe they're talking about the GFCI receptacle providing the 5ma protection along with the arc protection of the AFCI breaker, not a combination AFCI/GFCI breaker
That is incorrect. They are talking about one breaker incorporating BOTH GFCI and AFCI. Note where they specifically say "in one integrated design" (from their catalog, shown below)

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If you can find it I'd check it out. We are usually the first ones to see the new stuff.

Per the Eaton Cutler-Hammer catalog:

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FIRE-GUARD AFCI can also be equipped with 5 mA ground fault personnel protection, providing a residential circuit breaker that protects against arcing faults, thermal overloads and short circuits, and in addition, 5 mA ground fault protection in one integrated design.

And This;

AFCIs with 5 mA GFCI protection are available that meet UL 943, the standard for ground fault circuit interrupters.


So that's two companies (GE and Eaton Cutler-Hammer) making the same statement. I'll try to call them this week to get part numbers.
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:12 PM   #33
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Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


Thanks Angel. I got my information from an electrical supply house when HD didnt carry such a product. They looked it up in a paper catalog. Maybe they read it wrong. Ill admit i never double checked
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:13 PM   #34
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Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


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I used to rely on that when doing my wiring project. with no load applied on the circuit, i would touch the neutral and ground together, listen for the click of the breaker tripping, and resumed wiring. saved me a trip to the box. wonder if that was dangerous?
I have done the same thing I would also check for voltage after ... just in case.
The danger would be, if it has reversed polarity ... flash blindness ... spots for hours
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:18 PM   #35
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Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


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Thanks Angel. I got my information from an electrical supply house when HD didnt carry such a product.
Always glad to help

I'll have more specific information like part numbers once I talk with each company.
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:20 PM   #36
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great. wonder how close my $80 guess is. Also, double check these breakers provide combination type AFCI protection along with 5 ma GFCI
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:20 PM   #37
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well, with the 2014 NEC coming faster than I like, the draft is showing that AFCI protection will be expanding to kitchens and laundry rooms, so a one breaker to fit all needs may be an easy out for us.
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:27 PM   #38
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Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


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great. wonder how close my $80 guess is.
If my initial search is correct then you're around double the price $42 for both. But I have to verify information with the company first to be sure. If it is around $42, then that's a better deal than adding a GFI receptacle to a AFCI breaker, not to mention the (installation) time saved
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Old 09-09-2012, 07:32 PM   #39
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$42 rounded up to the nearest $40 is $80

Why dont they just require AFCI everywhere and just get it over with. in 2017 baths and outbuildings will probably be next
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Old 09-09-2012, 08:01 PM   #40
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Nope, still in their current catalog, in both 15 and 20 amp versions.


That is incorrect. They are talking about one breaker incorporating BOTH GFCI and AFCI. Note where they specifically say "in one integrated design" (from their catalog, shown below)



Per the Eaton Cutler-Hammer catalog:




So that's two companies (GE and Eaton Cutler-Hammer) making the same statement. I'll try to call them this week to get part numbers.
The way I am reading this is that it CAN be done. I still don't think they are regular stock items.

I must ask, WHY would you need this in the first place???
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Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:04 PM   #41
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The way I am reading this is that it CAN be done. I still don't think they are regular stock items.

I must ask, WHY would you need this in the first place???
Agreed, not stock, but will have my sales rep check on it

Why? please see post #37
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:12 PM   #42
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Why? please see post #37
Exactly! Thank you
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:17 PM   #43
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Why? please see post #37
Well, let's just hope that does not come to pass. AFCI's are stupid enough with new wiring.
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Old 09-09-2012, 09:22 PM   #44
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Kitchen GFCI Protected Receptacles


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AFCI's are stupid enough with new wiring.
Why are they stupid? They make everything safer. I'm guessing that's why they are required now
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Old 09-09-2012, 10:21 PM   #45
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Why are they stupid? They make everything safer. I'm guessing that's why they are required now
You should see how we the Europeans have to deal more connires than just plain jane AFCI's you have in stateside but good thing we did not adopt the AFCI requriement yet but our RCD's ( GFCI's ) work plenty well for us but the time will change again.

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