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Old 06-09-2012, 07:46 AM   #31
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Boy....some of you guys are getting touchy.......come....lets keep it civil and 'just try to get along'.....

Electrical stuff is a lot like the law....we have the 'letter' of the law, and then we have the 'spirit' of the law.

There are things that are dictated by the NEC....and then others that are just general practice....

For example....all outlets that are outside...in a bathroom...in a ground level garage....or kitchen counter top have to be GFIC.

But....your allowed to have a non-GFIC in the garage for a fridge or freezer....

I'm in the process of wiring up my house now....my new meter is in place and connected to the service....existing house is back in full operation....and I'm slowly getting the addition wired. In the process I'm doing some upgrades to the existing house....currently, my kitchen has only 2 ckts to it....when I'm done, there will be 5.

I'm pretty much wiring it up as Greg explained in his first post.....I won't violate any NEC codes...but much of it seems common sense...

Fridge on it's own ckt....that way you don't accidently trip a breaker using something else and leave it without power.

Outlets at the counter top level....GFIC and on their own ckt.

Microwave...it's a countertop unit...but I have a built in cubby above the oven for it...so it will have it's own breaker

DW and disposal on it's own breaker.

Stop top (gas) and Vent hood on it's own breaker.

Electric oven on it's own breaker.

I have never tripped a breaker in my house (expect when I drove the ground rod through the conduit going to my garage). If I'm tripping breakers doing normal stuff in the house....something is not normal and needs to be addressed.

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Old 06-09-2012, 09:58 PM   #32
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DDawg, the 2011 has removed the exception that receptacles for freezers etc in a garage do not need GFI protection. Now even the garage door opener needs GFI protection.
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Old 06-10-2012, 02:21 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
DDawg, the 2011 has removed the exception that receptacles for freezers etc in a garage do not need GFI protection. Now even the garage door opener needs GFI protection.
Are you serious? Even if the garage door opener outlet is up in the ceiling?

So much for storing my dead bodies in the freezer in the garage.....
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:13 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
Are you serious? Even if the garage door opener outlet is up in the ceiling?

So much for storing my dead bodies in the freezer in the garage.....

I can't tell you how many houses I have gone to with extension cords run from the garage door opener receptacle across the ceiling and down the wall to an appliance of some sort....

and lets face it, if the GFCI trips, its because a problem exists within the appliance.
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Old 06-10-2012, 07:48 PM   #35
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Quote:
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DDawg, the 2011 has removed the exception that receptacles for freezers etc in a garage do not need GFI protection. Now even the garage door opener needs GFI protection.
Except in New Jersey where it is still in.
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Old 06-10-2012, 08:20 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k_buz View Post
I am still missing it Greg, can you point it out?

210.23 Permissible Loads. In no case shall the load exceed
the branch-circuit ampere rating. An individual branch
circuit shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is
rated. A branch circuit supplying two or more outlets or
receptacles shall supply only the loads specified according
to its size as specified in 210.23(A) through (D) and as
summarized in 210.24 and Table 210.24.

(A) 15- and 20-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 15- or 20-
ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting
units or other utilization equipment, or a combination of
both, and shall comply with 210.23(A)(1) and (A)(2).
Exception: The small-appliance branch circuits, laundry
branch circuits, and bathroom branch circuits required in a
dwelling unit(s) by 210.11(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3) shall
supply only the receptacle outlets specified in that section.

(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment Not Fastened
in Place. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected
utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed
80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.

(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total
rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branchcircuit
ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plugconnected
utilization equipment not fastened in place, or
both, are also supplied.

(B) 30-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 30-ampere branch circuit
shall be permitted to supply fixed lighting units with
heavy-duty lampholders in other than a dwelling unit(s) or
utilization equipment in any occupancy. A rating of any one
cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not
exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating.

(C) 40- and 50-Ampere Branch Circuits. A 40- or 50-
ampere branch circuit shall be permitted to supply cooking
appliances that are fastened in place in any occupancy.
In other than dwelling units, such circuits shall be
permitted to supply fixed lighting units with heavy-duty lampholders,
infrared heating units, or other utilization equipment.

(D) Branch Circuits Larger Than 50 Amperes. Branch
circuits larger than 50 amperes shall supply only nonlighting
outlet loads.

I don't see it either.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:06 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
Are you serious? Even if the garage door opener outlet is up in the ceiling?

So much for storing my dead bodies in the freezer in the garage.....
I just legged it off of the gfci that sits above my workbench. As for the gfci qual for freezers in garages, how many do you know have probably been changed out, same for afci after the inspection. Bet quite a few. My freezer in the basement will not ever have a gfci on it, because I refuse to have to throw out a few hundred dollars of frozen foodstuffs, if the gfci tripped. I can tell you this, that if I ever did get tingled, you bet it would be unplugged checked with a meter, and either the cord replaced if it is the culprit, or replaced at that point.

But I am one to never place a fridge in the garage. Our garage gets up around 110 in the Summer, and if a fridge was in there, it would never shut down, trying to keep stuff cool in it, which would never happen.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:09 PM   #38
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k_buz, it is in the sidebar on pages 99-100 in the almost 1500 page book, not the smaller "edited" edition. But then again, I must be dreaming it, because it is still in there when I just pulled it up, and has been in there since the 2008 edition. But hey, do not get you wrong, because I just pulled it out of the air, which I didn't.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:53 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
k_buz, it is in the sidebar on pages 99-100 in the almost 1500 page book, not the smaller "edited" edition. But then again, I must be dreaming it, because it is still in there when I just pulled it up, and has been in there since the 2008 edition. But hey, do not get you wrong, because I just pulled it out of the air, which I didn't.

bwahh... okay.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
I just legged it off of the gfci that sits above my workbench. As for the gfci qual for freezers in garages, how many do you know have probably been changed out, same for afci after the inspection. Bet quite a few. My freezer in the basement will not ever have a gfci on it, because I refuse to have to throw out a few hundred dollars of frozen foodstuffs, if the gfci tripped. I can tell you this, that if I ever did get tingled, you bet it would be unplugged checked with a meter, and either the cord replaced if it is the culprit, or replaced at that point.

But I am one to never place a fridge in the garage. Our garage gets up around 110 in the Summer, and if a fridge was in there, it would never shut down, trying to keep stuff cool in it, which would never happen.
Im a professional, i have the client replace the damaged piece of equipment... I bet you would do the same in a commercial kitchen as well... it's your ignorance that bothers most on here...
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:57 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
As for the gfci qual for freezers in garages, how many do you know have probably been changed out, same for afci after the inspection. Bet quite a few. My freezer in the basement will not ever have a gfci on it, because I refuse to have to throw out a few hundred dollars of frozen foodstuffs, if the gfci tripped.
none, just goes to show how you roll... you ignore safety over your own ignorance on the NEC...
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:59 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
k_buz, it is in the sidebar on pages 99-100 in the almost 1500 page book, not the smaller "edited" edition. But then again, I must be dreaming it, because it is still in there when I just pulled it up, and has been in there since the 2008 edition. But hey, do not get you wrong, because I just pulled it out of the air, which I didn't.
You are going to have to do much better than that. Are you talking about the NEC Handbook? Quote the section of the book you are referencing.
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:00 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
k_buz, it is in the sidebar on pages 99-100 in the almost 1500 page book, not the smaller "edited" edition. But then again, I must be dreaming it, because it is still in there when I just pulled it up, and has been in there since the 2008 edition. But hey, do not get you wrong, because I just pulled it out of the air, which I didn't.
Really Greg, why not just post the NEC year (handbook or codebook) and the section for the reference.

BTW, the "1500 page book" is the NEC Handbook. It contains additional commentary that is NOT part of the National Electrical Code and is NOT enforceable. The NEC ("smaller version") is not edited. It is the REAL code. Anything other than the NEC codebook is just opinion.

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Old 06-11-2012, 09:55 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll
k_buz, it is in the sidebar on pages 99-100 in the almost 1500 page book, not the smaller "edited" edition. But then again, I must be dreaming it, because it is still in there when I just pulled it up, and has been in there since the 2008 edition. But hey, do not get you wrong, because I just pulled it out of the air, which I didn't.
This is another load of crap. If you are referring to the handbook then say so. And by the way, the NEC is not the "edited version" of the handbook. I also agree with the other real electricians here.
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Old 06-12-2012, 05:53 AM   #45
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Greg,

You ever going to post that reference? I have all the codebooks and handbooks from 1996-2011, so I'll find it, scan it and post it as soon as you let me know where to look.

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