Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback - Electrical - DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Electrical

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-29-2012, 12:48 AM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 35
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


I am in the middle of planning a remodel and will be doing a lot of rewiring during this process (previously posted on this). I have a couple questions that popped up specific to the kitchen...

1. Currently the dishwasher and garbage disposer are hard wired on the same circuit. I believe this violates 422.31 in regards to the disconnecting means for the dishwasher. The garbage disposer is on a switch and I was wondering if a switch counted as a disconnecting means for 422.31 and if in theory 422.31 could be satisfied and both appliances served from the same circuit if a "switch" was added for the dishwasher? My plan was to add a separate circuit for the dishwasher unless it is not needed.

2. As a part of the remodel, I will be removing a section of wall (to create a "window") that separates the kitchen and dining room. This area will be replaced by base cabinets and wall cabinets and there will be wall space to the left and right of the base cabinets, however, there will be no wall "behind" the countertop surface. Would this countertop be considered an "island" for purposes of 210.52(C)?

3. In conjunction with question 2, the kitchen will have 2 separate countertop "areas" (3 "spaces" due to sink in main countertop). If a separate 20A GFCI circuit is ran to each countertop "area", will this satisfy 210.52(B)(3)? Where I am a bit fuzzy on the answer to this is that the cabinets will be recessed into the wall space / adjacent room and the outlets are probably going to end up where the wall cavity would be if it was extended from where the walls will still exist. I believe that this would still be ok though unless they go strictly by where the wall would extend to determine the "end" of the kitchen. Assuming this ok by code, does anyone think this is not enough knowing that there will be a dedicated 15A circuit for the refrigerator and 1 for the microwave?

4. With the design described in question 3 in mind, would the "wall" created by the back of the cabinets that are recessed into the dining area be considered as "fixed cabinets" for the "exception" to wall space as defined in 210.52(A)(2)(1)? The plan is for around 6' 6" of such cabinets and there would be a problem with the need for a receptacle on the "cabinet wall" in the dining room if this space is not excepted. I'd prefer not to have to wire a plug onto the back of the cabinets.

5. If the circuits supplying the countertop outlets in the kitchen were used to power some receptacles in the adjacent dining room per 210.52(B)(3), would the circuit breaker then be required to be a combination AFCI/GFCI breaker to satisfy 210.12(A)? I believe this answer is yes, which leads me to ask whether the circuit could be protected by an AFCI only breaker with the first connected plug on the circuit being a GFCI plug? Would this work or would the different protection devices (AFCI breaker / GFCI receptacle) interfere with each other? This is mostly a theoretical question as most likely the circuits will be separate as currently planned, but I am curious as to my options and what flexibility might exist.

Advertisement

dcapone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 07:13 AM   #2
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,343
Rewards Points: 2,006
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


Quote:
Originally Posted by dcapone View Post
I am in the middle of planning a remodel and will be doing a lot of rewiring during this process (previously posted on this). I have a couple questions that popped up specific to the kitchen...

1. Currently the dishwasher and garbage disposer are hard wired on the same circuit. I believe this violates 422.31 in regards to the disconnecting means for the dishwasher. The garbage disposer is on a switch and I was wondering if a switch counted as a disconnecting means for 422.31 and if in theory 422.31 could be satisfied and both appliances served from the same circuit if a "switch" was added for the dishwasher? My plan was to add a separate circuit for the dishwasher unless it is not needed.

Wire an appliance cord onto the appliances. Then install an outlet for each in the base cabinet under the sink using the wiring currently feeding each appliance.


2. As a part of the remodel, I will be removing a section of wall (to create a "window") that separates the kitchen and dining room. This area will be replaced by base cabinets and wall cabinets and there will be wall space to the left and right of the base cabinets, however, there will be no wall "behind" the countertop surface. Would this countertop be considered an "island" for purposes of 210.52(C)?

No it wouldn't. You would need to follow the general kitchen counter top spacing...GFI protected receptacle every 4' and within 2' of a break.


3. In conjunction with question 2, the kitchen will have 2 separate countertop "areas" (3 "spaces" due to sink in main countertop). If a separate 20A GFCI circuit is ran to each countertop "area", will this satisfy 210.52(B)(3)? Where I am a bit fuzzy on the answer to this is that the cabinets will be recessed into the wall space / adjacent room and the outlets are probably going to end up where the wall cavity would be if it was extended from where the walls will still exist. I believe that this would still be ok though unless they go strictly by where the wall would extend to determine the "end" of the kitchen. Assuming this ok by code, does anyone think this is not enough knowing that there will be a dedicated 15A circuit for the refrigerator and 1 for the microwave?

I really don't know what you are asking in this question. 3 20A counter top circuits will be fine. I would make one change tho...run another separate 20A circuit to the microwave.

4. With the design described in question 3 in mind, would the "wall" created by the back of the cabinets that are recessed into the dining area be considered as "fixed cabinets" for the "exception" to wall space as defined in 210.52(A)(2)(1)? The plan is for around 6' 6" of such cabinets and there would be a problem with the need for a receptacle on the "cabinet wall" in the dining room if this space is not excepted. I'd prefer not to have to wire a plug onto the back of the cabinets.

If cabinets do not open on the dining room side, you will need a receptacle.. You can install a floor receptacle to satisfy this requirement.

5. If the circuits supplying the countertop outlets in the kitchen were used to power some receptacles in the adjacent dining room per 210.52(B)(3), would the circuit breaker then be required to be a combination AFCI/GFCI breaker to satisfy 210.12(A)?

Yes and no...There are no AFCI/GFCI combination breakers, so you would need to install the AFCI breaker and install GFCI receptacle/s to protect the receptacles. Only receptacles that serve the counter top need to be GFI protected.


I believe this answer is yes, which leads me to ask whether the circuit could be protected by an AFCI only breaker with the first connected plug on the circuit being a GFCI plug?

Answered above.

Would this work or would the different protection devices (AFCI breaker / GFCI receptacle) interfere with each other? This is mostly a theoretical question as most likely the circuits will be separate as currently planned, but I am curious as to my options and what flexibility might exist.
answers in red

Advertisement

__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 07:48 AM   #3
TTW
Member
 
TTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Maine
Posts: 350
Rewards Points: 250
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


I have read that AFCI's and GFCI's don't play well together.

Maybe this will help:

TTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 09:01 AM   #4
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,431
Rewards Points: 2,524
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


Under old codes, Dishwashers & disposals could be on the same circuit, just that the circuit had to be sized for the total amperage of both appliances. It can still be done that way in most, since a lot of areas adopt their own codes under the NEC, and not always do they match with the NEC. Some are more lx on using old code, others are more stringent.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 09:11 AM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 35
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


Quote:
Wire an appliance cord onto the appliances. Then install an outlet for each in the base cabinet under the sink using the wiring currently feeding each appliance.
I did not want to do this, adding an additional circuit is actually easier as the space below is into an unfinished basement. The switch idea, as mentioned, was more about the theory / opinions on whether it would count as a disconnecting method.

Quote:
No it wouldn't. You would need to follow the general kitchen counter top spacing...GFI protected receptacle every 4' and within 2' of a break.
Is there any code reference for this? This is one place I disagree based on the ways parts of 210.52(C)(1) are worded including the exception where it excepts a receptacle from needing to be installed on a "wall BEHIND" a sink, etc. This to me implicitly applies that a wall countertop space requires that there be a wall behind and abutting the countertop to be considered a wall countertop. I actually intend to have receptacles that comply with the 2' rule, however, the place where I would violate code if the wall countertop section does apply (which I currently do not see and would like additional feedback / discussion on) is that I intend to install the circuits on the "roof" of the window and therefore the receptacles would be around 2' above the countertop and in violation of the 20" requirement. 210.52(C)(5) exception 2 provides an exception to the 20" rule for islands and peninsulars without backsplashes, etc. This is exception is also where I am further seeing an implicit definition that would include the described space as an island / peninsular. Any additional information / reference would be appreciated on this.

Quote:
I really don't know what you are asking in this question. 3 20A counter top circuits will be fine. I would make one change tho...run another separate 20A circuit to the microwave.
Well, I only described 2 countertop circuits, however, the question was really to determine whether the "island" receptacles and circuit would be considered part of the kitchen. I plan separate circuits for the refrigerator and microwave as mentioned.

Quote:
If cabinets do not open on the dining room side, you will need a receptacle.. You can install a floor receptacle to satisfy this requirement.
I thought so, but was hoping no lol. I will leave a little extra wall space to be able to put a receptacle on both sides of the cabinets.

Quote:
Yes and no...There are no AFCI/GFCI combination breakers, so you would need to install the AFCI breaker and install GFCI receptacle/s to protect the receptacles. Only receptacles that serve the counter top need to be GFI protected.
Going to avoid this and just use a separate circuit for the dining room area and/or tie it into the living room circuit whichever ends up being easier. However, combination breakers do exist....http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...er-644883.aspx
dcapone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 09:12 AM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 35
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Under old codes, Dishwashers & disposals could be on the same circuit, just that the circuit had to be sized for the total amperage of both appliances. It can still be done that way in most, since a lot of areas adopt their own codes under the NEC, and not always do they match with the NEC. Some are more lx on using old code, others are more stringent.
I'm in RI and we have adopted NEC 2011. The only amendments that I am aware of all pertain to service entrance exceptions.
dcapone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 09:15 AM   #7
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,343
Rewards Points: 2,006
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


That space isn't considered an island because it will be mounted to a wall.
__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 09:31 AM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 35
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


Are you referring to where the cabinets screw into?

If that is what the determination is based on, I can simply mount the base cabinets in place to the floor.

Keep in mind that the back of the cabinets will serve as the "wall" in the adjacent dining room. The cabinets would be free standing on the floor and the existing wall will be removed from 2.5' from the ceiling all the way down to the floor and the cabinets put their instead. The "walls" will only exist to the left and right of the cabinets and not behind the cabinets. The wall will remain "above" the cabinets where wall cabinets will be mounted but not behind the base cabinets.
dcapone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 10:04 AM   #9
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,343
Rewards Points: 2,006
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


So, you will have upper and lower cabinets to the left and right of this window, and there will be walls to the left and right of the space in question?

If this is correct, you cannot consider this an island or peninsula. How wide is this window?
__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 11:05 AM   #10
TTW
Member
 
TTW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Maine
Posts: 350
Rewards Points: 250
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


Quote:
Originally Posted by dcapone View Post
Going to avoid this and just use a separate circuit for the dining room area and/or tie it into the living room circuit whichever ends up being easier. However, combination breakers do exist....http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...er-644883.aspx
I checked Eaton's website for the specs on that breaker and is is NOT a GFCI, only an AFCI. That hardwarestore site is wrong.
TTW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 02:16 PM   #11
Member
 
Oso954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Northern Calif.
Posts: 1,826
Rewards Points: 1,532
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


Combination AFCI/GFCI breakers do exist, but I do not know if anyone is currently making them.
Cutler Hammer produced them in the BR and CH lines. They had numbers such as BR115AFGF.
Some of the obsolete/hard to find breaker sellers are still listing them for sale.
Oso954 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Oso954 For This Useful Post:
TTW (11-29-2012)
Old 11-29-2012, 02:47 PM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 35
Rewards Points: 25
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


k_buz,

There will be no cabinets to the left and right of the window and no counterspace except as a part of the window (will not extend left or right past the window more than an inch or two maybe just to finish the counter properly).

Cabinets will form the bottom of the window and the existing wall will have cabinets hung above the window, nothing to the left or right of the window.
dcapone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 02:55 PM   #13
Lic Electrical Inspector
 
electures's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Great Police State of New Jersey
Posts: 1,762
Rewards Points: 1,102
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oso954 View Post
Combination AFCI/GFCI breakers do exist, but I do not know if anyone is currently making them.
Cutler Hammer produced them in the BR and CH lines. They had numbers such as BR115AFGF.
Some of the obsolete/hard to find breaker sellers are still listing them for sale.
I have yet to see a combination AFCI/GFI breaker. A combination AFCI breaker refers to its ability to detect a combination of series or parallel arc faults.

If anyone else has seen a combination AFCI/GFI breaker please enlighten me.
__________________
All responses based on the 2011 NEC.
If you live in New Jersey click here. All other states click here.
Please check with local, county and state officials as laws may vary.
Sizing motors here. Online motor calculator here. Online calculators here.
electures is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to electures For This Useful Post:
Speedy Petey (11-29-2012), stickboy1375 (11-29-2012)
Old 11-29-2012, 03:52 PM   #14
Member
 
Oso954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Northern Calif.
Posts: 1,826
Rewards Points: 1,532
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


Here is a copy of the Eaton instruction sheet on them. (click OK to open the PDF.)
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...iUVvxYMN-XWawQ


There is a listing for a ch115afgf on ebay, so I tried to grab a closeup snip of it. I can read the label, but some might have difficulty (small or faint print).
Attached Thumbnails
Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback-ch115afgf.jpg  
Oso954 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2012, 04:48 PM   #15
Licensed Electrician
 
k_buz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 4,343
Rewards Points: 2,006
Default

Kitchen Code Questions / Feedback


Quote:
Originally Posted by dcapone View Post
k_buz,

There will be no cabinets to the left and right of the window and no counterspace except as a part of the window (will not extend left or right past the window more than an inch or two maybe just to finish the counter properly).

Cabinets will form the bottom of the window and the existing wall will have cabinets hung above the window, nothing to the left or right of the window.
I have a very hard time believing you will be able to classify this as an island. I would like to hear Electures opinion on this.

Advertisement

__________________
__________________________________________________ ______________
Answers based on the National Electric Code. Always check local amendments.


k_buz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Questions on picking colors for our kitchen in a Victorian jmluman Painting 2 09-07-2011 08:50 AM
Kitchen electrical code pbthompson3168 Electrical 4 07-19-2011 07:32 PM
Smoke detector in kitchen remodel - required by code? tpagel Electrical 6 07-07-2011 09:45 AM
Kitchen Sink Moved - new kitchen sleepysmurf Plumbing 1 08-10-2010 07:38 AM
Michigan code questions rondo Electrical 1 12-22-2005 11:37 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts