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Old 05-15-2008, 05:19 PM   #1
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Installing new wall receptacle...


Okie dokie folks,

I'm back with more questions! For any of you that helped me out with my last two threads (Recessed lighting + Landscaping) - Thanks! you guys have been awesome!!!!

Now on to my next project! I am installing recessed lighting in my game room which houses an 8ft olhausen pool table and a 42" Plasma. The recessed lighting part I am already familiar with (thanks to this forum) however my new challenge arises with installing a receptacle behind the plasma.

As you can see from the pic below I have two receptacles on each side of the plasma. I would like the new one behind the plasma along with a low voltage HDMI connector which I will be running a 35ft line into the closet of the adjacent bedroom. Ideally I would like to keep the two receptacles where they are currently at and install a new one behind the Plasma.

This closet will house the HD Receiver and Audio receiver for the in-ceiling speakers...

Here are my questions;

1) Can you "TAP" into an existing wall receptacle and place the new one behind the Plasma without making too many holes/cuts ? I'm assuming this will require light cutting into the existing drywall/Sheetrock?

-It should be known that the wall the Plasma is sitting on shares an external wall for the outside (no room to go through the back per se)

2) If I can't "TAP" into an existing one, what is the best/easiest/cleanest method of installing a new one behind the plasma?

2a) If I must use an existing receptacle would it be wise to use a receptacle from an adjacent room and run a line through the ceiling into the wall and behind the Plasma?

3) Is it an issue if I have the Low Voltage HDMI wall plate near the new receptacle? I purchased this wall plate





***ALSO***
On a quick side note; The in-ceiling speakers are Polk Audio RC80i (Found Here:http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/p...ceiling/rc80i/ )

Any issues with insulation contact? I've researched the manuals/online help etc... but no where does it mention direct insulation contact? I'm assuming there is no issue since these are branded and labeled "In-Ceiling" Speakers?

Thanks for all of your help in advance !!! Hopefully someday I will be able to repay all of you with my expertise...
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Last edited by jaysen; 05-15-2008 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 05-15-2008, 06:16 PM   #2
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Installing new wall receptacle...


If you tap off one of those two existing outlets to the left or right of that TV then you will probably have to cut into your drywall. What is above and below that room? If you have attic space or a basement then you're in luck. You can fish from above or below and mount the new outlet directly behind the TV. When you trim it out you'll use a clock outlet. A clock outlet is an outlet that is recessed into the wall a bit to leave room for the TV's plug.

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Old 05-15-2008, 06:34 PM   #3
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Installing new wall receptacle...


Super33-

Thanks for the quick reply. Directly below is the garage/above = the roof. I have no problem cutting dry wall out from the garage into that room if need be...

Now the term "Taping" would I still have the existing receptacle (depending on which one i go with left/right) or basically am I relocating it to the rear of the TV ?
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:43 AM   #4
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Installing new wall receptacle...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
1) Can you "TAP" into an existing wall receptacle and place the new one behind the Plasma without making too many holes/cuts ? I'm assuming this will require light cutting into the existing drywall/Sheetrock?
Yes. One thing that I've done in the past in a similar situation is to remove the base moulding and shoe. Depending on how high it was installed with respect to the bottom wall plate, you can drill through the studs/furring down low and then cover again with the moulding to minimize d/w rework. Watch out for toe nails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
3) Is it an issue if I have the Low Voltage HDMI wall plate near the new receptacle?
I believe that type of cable has twisted, shielded pairs. Still, I like to install mine so that the HDMI outlets have at least a stud between them and the recept. Use cables with an in-wall rated jacket. Also, in a new installation where I can route the cable before sheet rocking, I attach it to the face of the far stud to the level where the HDMI outlet is then laterally to the box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
Any issues with insulation contact? I've researched the manuals/online help etc... but no where does it mention direct insulation contact? I'm assuming there is no issue since these are branded and labeled "In-Ceiling" Speakers?
Heat is not a concern with speakers as it would be with recessed lights if that's what you're getting at. In fact, some manufacturers recommend that you add a batt of insulation behind their speakers to minimize sound transmission to other rooms or through walls/ceilings/floors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
Now the term "Taping" would I still have the existing receptacle (depending on which one i go with left/right) or basically am I relocating it to the rear of the TV ?
You can do either but you needn't remove the existing recept if that is your concern.

Just as an FYI, I used the following product for my latest plasma install.

Installing new wall receptacle...-miw_pwr_pro.jpg

The recepts are recessed and it has built in surge supression.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:58 AM   #5
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Installing new wall receptacle...


Big Jimmy-

Thanks! This is the type of answers I was looking for - Sweet. Couple quick questions;

1) When I tap into the existing receptacle what is the best method and within code - Add junction box near existing receptacle and chain from there like this :

|| <---- Existing Romex to receptacle
||
||
||
[_] <---- Junction Box
/ \
| |
| |- - - - -Plasma Receptacle
|
|
|
Existing receptacle ?

2) Any online websites I can pick one of those up from off the top of your head?
**EDIT** Found the answer to my second question.

Last edited by jaysen; 05-16-2008 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 05-16-2008, 12:49 PM   #6
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Installing new wall receptacle...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
1) When I tap into the existing receptacle what is the best method and within code - Add junction box near existing receptacle and chain from there like this :

|| <---- Existing Romex to receptacle
||
||
||
[_] <---- Junction Box
/ \
| |
| |- - - - -Plasma Receptacle
|
|
|
Existing receptacle ?
The existing receptacle should already be mounted in its own box. You can run the new cable directly from this box without installing another assuming that you're not overfilling it by adding the new conductors. Without seeing it, you either have one cable coming into the box and terminating on the recept or two cables connected together with the recept pigtailed off of them. If the former, the new cable should be spliced to the existing along with a short piece (i.e. "pigtail") with which you'll connect the recept. If the latter, simply pigtail the new conductors to the existing which should already have the pigtail intact.

Glad you found a link. I paid $75 for mine so make sure you look around as the prices varied quite a bit. Also, you will need a 2-device box to install this guy if you choose to go this route. I don't deal with NM-b cable and plastic boxes but if they have extra-deep ones, go with that (other people in the forum can comment here). Hopefully you have a full stud wall to work with. If the drywall is furred, you may have a problem with this particular product as the electronics are enclosed in a steel box behind the faceplate that protrudes an 1-1/2 or so. Better wait on purchasing it until you know for sure.

Good luck!
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Old 05-22-2008, 03:34 PM   #7
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Installing new wall receptacle...


UPDATE:

Here's what I've got so far...

I've got the recessed lighting cans cut out and pre-wired as well as the speaker cut-out + pre-wire. I just finished up the low voltage HDMI wall plate and wire run. I had to take a nice piece of the sheet-rock out because I could not drill thru 6" of wood with a small square (no biggie).

Unfortunately I do not have attic access in this portion of the room, otherwise this whole project would have been cut in half.

I am about to start the receptacle wiring and I'm a little nervous I placed the new receptacle in between the existing so fishing will go much smoother (hopefully)

I am a little concerned and curious as to BigJimmy's instructions (above). I somewhat understand his explanation however, I took pictures of my existing wiring.

The receptacle I took a picture of (existing) is purposely turned upside down. This is to signify that one of the outlets (I believe its the top) is controlled by the wall switch and the other requires no switch.

Once I fish my romex thru I connect the black to the black, white to the white, and ground to ground - Right? I do not want to use the red because that (most likely) is the wall switch.
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Installing new wall receptacle...-gameroom_remodel1.jpg   Installing new wall receptacle...-gameroom_remodel2.jpg   Installing new wall receptacle...-gameroom_remodel3.jpg   Installing new wall receptacle...-gameroom_remodel4.jpg  
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Old 05-22-2008, 04:13 PM   #8
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Installing new wall receptacle...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
I am a little concerned and curious as to BigJimmy's instructions (above). I somewhat understand his explanation however, I took pictures of my existing wiring.

The receptacle I took a picture of (existing) is purposely turned upside down. This is to signify that one of the outlets (I believe its the top) is controlled by the wall switch and the other requires no switch.

Once I fish my romex thru I connect the black to the black, white to the white, and ground to ground - Right? I do not want to use the red because that (most likely) is the wall switch.
Didn't mean to scare you!

You're probably correct about the wire colors but for the heck of it, plug a lamp into the recept. fed by the red wire and work the switch to make sure. Assuming it is (the switched hot), you'll want to do as you said, black to black, white to white. Couple of things:

1. Take the existing and new wires and twist them together (matching colors) along with an additional, short piece of cable. This will go to the existing receptacle. Don't forget your grounds either.

2. I cannot tell from the picture if those exist wires are back-stabbed but it looks like it. When you connect the new pigtail, do so via the screws on the side.

Good luck!
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:47 PM   #9
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Installing new wall receptacle...


BigJimmy

Again, much thanks.... Quick question;

I noticed (and provided a pic) that on the back of the existing receptacle there is a total of two holes where the existing wire is going thru (no screws like the new one i just purchased).

Instead of using the Pigtail method, can I just insert into the adjacent holes?
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:52 PM   #10
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Installing new wall receptacle...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
BigJimmy

Again, much thanks.... Quick question;

I noticed (and provided a pic) that on the back of the existing receptacle there is a total of two holes where the existing wire is going thru (no screws like the new one i just purchased).

Instead of using the Pigtail method, can I just insert into the adjacent holes?
Ok, this last picture and your comment about the absence of screws on the existing receptacle clear up a lot.

It appears that you can only connect wires to your existing receptacle via "back-stabbed" connections. In fact, see the holes on the new receptacle? Same method. Note the small brass-colored rectangles on the new one next to each hole? Those are used to "unlock" a wire that has been installed. If you search this forum or likely others, you will find that this method of wiring devices (called "back-stabbing") can be very problematic as the connections often become loose and therein can cause a host of problems.

This being said, get rid of the existing receptacle and replace it with your newer one. But, take the time to strip and form a loop in the conductor. This will go around the threads of the screw which will tighten down over it. Your wires should enter on the left of the screw head and loop clockwise so that the tightening action will not push the wire from underneath the screw head. Do NOT simply strip the wires and push into the holes. I don't want to get any deeper but honestly, search the forum and you'll see what I'm concerned about.

While on this note, some manufacturers make their recepts with a set of square jaws that compress together as you tighten the screw. You insert the wire straight into the clamp from the back of the receptacle and then tighten the screw. This is called "back wiring" and is perfectly acceptable and preferred by many. It looks like your newer model is a Leviton. You can purchase their Prograde (at home depot) which include this feature.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:56 PM   #11
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Installing new wall receptacle...


BigJimmy-

One last (hopefully) question... I will take your advice and wire the way you suggested. But I'm curious to know if the way I suggested inserting the new wire into the adjacent hole (keeping same color scheme) will work also ?

I only ask for future reference. I want to install a new receptacle in another room sometime down the line and I want to make sure I do it correctly
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Old 05-23-2008, 06:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
But I'm curious to know if the way I suggested inserting the new wire into the adjacent hole (keeping same color scheme) will work also ?

I only ask for future reference. I want to install a new receptacle in another room sometime down the line and I want to make sure I do it correctly
In general, you can do what you are saying just like you could connect the feed wires for the circuit to one set of silver/brass screws and the wires comprising the downstream/load circuit to the other set. This would be acceptable if the receptacle was listed for feed through wiring.

I tried to find specific listing information on the Leviton site but I finally had to submit a request. My guess is that if they are not, some sort of note would be embossed in the back of the receptacle.

On the other hand, professionals do not wire this way, i.e. using the feed through method; they always install a pigtail for connection to the device. This is a more reliable wiring method IMO and it's especially better if you were back stabbing the connections.

That being said, do not back stab wires now or in the future. Always connect via a pig tail (unless this is the last/only recept in the circuit in which case it isn't necessary).
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:41 PM   #13
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Installing new wall receptacle...


Big Jimmy-

So far so good, I got the new receptacle in - Does it matter that I wired this first instead of connecting the existing wire with the new via pigtail ? or does it not matter ?

Also, I am taking your advice and replacing the old (existing) "Back Stabbed" only receptacle and replacing it with the new side screw receptacle. My question to you is two things;

1. When I wire the new side screw receptacle (inside the existing box) if I choose not to use the red (wall controlled) wire and hook it up Black, White, and Ground will both outlets work?

2. If I yes to the question above, can I skip the pigtail method and wire the new wiring (recep behind tv) to the available side screw on the existing receptacle (being that I am replacing the back stabbed with the side screw) ?

So in theory there would be two white wires on each one of the silver screws, two black wires on each one of the gold screws, and two ground wires on the one green ground screw.

- I ask only because it seems that having all the wires in the existing box might get crammed and cause it not close completely....


While typing this I just thought of another question...
If i do decide to keep the red wall controlled outlet, when I pigtail the old with the new; I wanna just confirm with you that I only use the black/white/ground from existing recep to the new recep and leave the red connected to the top side screw to the existing recep...

Sorry if that sounds confusing. Shall I clarify or do you understand what im saying?
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Last edited by jaysen; 06-04-2008 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 06-05-2008, 10:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
So far so good, I got the new receptacle in - Does it matter that I wired this first instead of connecting the existing wire with the new via pigtail ? or does it not matter ?
I'm not really sure I understand this question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
1. When I wire the new side screw receptacle (inside the existing box) if I choose not to use the red (wall controlled) wire and hook it up Black, White, and Ground will both outlets work?
You mentioned that you replaced the old with a new receptacle. As long as you didn't cut the bus connection between screws on the same sides, yes, both will work. Make sure you wirenut the un-used red wire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
2. If I yes to the question above, can I skip the pigtail method and wire the new wiring (recep behind tv) to the available side screw on the existing receptacle (being that I am replacing the back stabbed with the side screw) ?
As I said before, as long as the device (duplex receptacle in this case) is UL listed for feed-through wiring, it is fine. I don't know if in general, most receptacles are listed for this purpose. I couldn't find any information at the Leviton website and never got an email response to my inquiry from them. Is there some reason that you are apprehensive about pigtailing? Just keep in mind that this is the accepted general practice for making device connections. Not to say that the other is not OK.

On another note, I see two minor issues with your wiring. First, it looks like you may have pinched some of the hot conductor insulation under the screw. Secondly, look closely at the loops. The white is connected correctly, so that the loop surrounds the screw in the clockwise direction whereas the black on the other hand surrounds the screw in the counter clockwise direction. Re-terminate the black. Remember, your conductor loops should always wrap around the stud of the screw in a clockwise direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
So in theory there would be two white wires on each one of the silver screws, two black wires on each one of the gold screws, and two ground wires on the one green ground screw.
I'd pigtail the two cable grounds to the switch with a separate short length of ground conductor so that you only have one conductor on the receptacle. I think you'd have a tough time guaranteeing a good connection and the single screw is probably not listed for connection of multiple wires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysen View Post
If i do decide to keep the red wall controlled outlet, when I pigtail the old with the new; I wanna just confirm with you that I only use the black/white/ground from existing recep to the new recep and leave the red connected to the top side screw to the existing recep...
This is correct but keep in mind that you'll need to cut the bus connection between the brass screws on the receptacle that will be switched. If you used all four of the screws (i.e. feed-through method), you'll have to pigtail the wiring at the point that you split the receptacle (another reason to simply do it now).
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Old 06-05-2008, 03:13 PM   #15
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Installing new wall receptacle...


Big Jimmy!

Well I finally did it !

As to my first question, all i was asking was does it matter what I wired first; i.e. new receptacle or old

Second;
I hooked up via pigtail - I was not oppose to this method at all, being that I have no idea about electrical work, I was completely open to suggestions. I am just that type of person that wants to know everything. Even the wrong way.

Third;
I wired the existing receptacle box with a new leviton side screw recep. I wired it with one black (gold screw), one white (silver screw), one ground (green) and one red (gold screw). I assumed, and going based off your earlier answer, the existing receptacle would work as it did before. Light switch will control the upper outlet. However, this is not the case. I plugged a lamp into both with the switch in the off position and the lamp turned on regardless of the wall switch.

Why is this ?

- I dont mind that both outlets are always hot so should i remove the red wire from the gold screw and just wire nut it ? Currently it is utilizing a gold screw


Other than that, THANKS AGAIN - You've been a great help!

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