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Old 10-23-2013, 04:03 PM   #16
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Installing new sub panel in the attic


It makes it easier to just go to one panel, then having two panels, to hunt for the circuit. As for the thirty amps, whether it is through one panel or two, it is still thirty amps.

Can you post a picture of your current panel with manufacturer & model# info, along with the "Dead Front" pulled off, to show us if there are any current issues that need to be taken care of first (ie not enough space on the current Neutral/Ground bus bars).

If you do not have a copy of the NEC for your code cycle at this time, I would suggest getting one. Also draw out floor plans with current outlet, switch, lighting locations and how the wiring is currently ran from those circuits back to the main.

You may end up finding when you start tearing into this retro-fitted wiring, that there are issues that were left, if it was the previous home owner, or "Handy person" that did the work, not a licensed sparky.

Any info on the current panel, what company did the work previously? Go back to http://www.diychatroom.com/profile.php?do=editprofile under "Additional Information", post your location.

Now back in the day, when they would locate a panel on a second floor, they would just place it in the hallway, so that it was easily accessible, and made it easy so that you would not have to go down three flights of stairs, when you lost the lights or outlets on that upper floor.

How warm does your attic space get also?

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Old 10-23-2013, 04:09 PM   #17
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Installing new sub panel in the attic


Sure I'll do that - might be a couple days (I have a 14 hour work day ahead of me tomorrow).
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Old 10-23-2013, 04:16 PM   #18
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No biggie. If you are not in a big hurry to do this, just take the time you need, make notes of what was suggested, then go from there. We have all been there, and this is not really one of those things you rush, nor really want to dive into if you live where the temps stay warm all of the time.
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:34 PM   #19
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Here's a few pictures. Didn't have time to take the cover off since I have to get up at 430 tomorrow; I'll do it later.

https://db.tt/9AhJ6rhe
https://db.tt/onpHOBCL
https://db.tt/DqjWxyb8
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Old 10-25-2013, 01:25 PM   #20
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Ugh I just realized that these pictures are not going to be very helpful. I'll post some better ones tonight (wife is going out of town so it's time to get cray cray).
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:26 PM   #21
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Ugh I just realized that these pictures are not going to be very helpful. I'll post some better ones tonight (wife is going out of town so it's time to get cray cray).
In my household, that means going out to grab some good micro-brew, and watch movies all evening, or heading to the bar to meet up with guys.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:40 PM   #22
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In my household, that means going out to grab some good micro-brew, and watch movies all evening, or heading to the bar to meet up with guys.
There may be a microbrew involved (this place is on the corner down the street), but the 10 month old is going to put the kibosh on leaving the house. That's ok though- she's pretty cool.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:21 PM   #23
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There may be a microbrew involved (this place is on the corner down the street), but the 10 month old is going to put the kibosh on leaving the house. That's ok though- she's pretty cool.
My dad's brother lives in Dayton. They have left a couple of times, but always moved back. Also have family in Huber Heights.

Belmont looks like the Friar Tuck that we have here in Springfield, IL. http://www.friartuckonline.com/Index.aspx If I do any work at home, I will usually have a few after, but may have one or two, while sitting down and putting pencil to paper, planning out any electrical work I am going to do, if it is a major job in this place.

I came across some old drawings in the Black & Decker "Complete Guide to Home Wiring". It is the 2005 edition that I got right after we bought this place. I use it mainly for the wiring diagrams, since it is easier to use that, then try and search online for them. Plus the drawings make good book marks.

Some day my kids are going to come across my wiring diagrams and think that dad was too over the wall, when it came to being detail orientated. I came across some of my father's wiring diagrams and schematics. He would use colored pencils and were always very detailed in how they were drawn.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:56 PM   #24
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Installing new sub panel in the attic


Been thinking about you guys' advice a bit more... what would you think about running all of my circuits with THHN up the same length of conduit from the basement to an attic j-box, and then using NM from there to the fixtures? How big would the conduit have to be to run enough 12 and 14 gage wire for... eh... I'd say 5 circuits? And maybe a little bit of room for expansion later? This would accomplish what I'm trying to do (i.e. make it easy to run the wires up to the attic and drop them down from there), while avoiding the hassle (and cost) of a sub panel.

Or is that exactly what you suggested before? I thought you meant running individual romex home-runs.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:59 PM   #25
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Installing new sub panel in the attic


Here's another idea I just had. Could I save on conduit space by running one larger sized ground wire (instead of multiples) to a separate bus bar in the attic? Is that totally crazy and against code or what? If it isn't against code then I assume the bus bar would have to fit inside the j-box....

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Old 10-25-2013, 04:13 PM   #26
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assuming 5 circuits (one hot and neutral each) in a single conduit, the conductor allowable ampacity decreases by 50%. for #14 thhn, maximum ampacity would be 10 amp. if the load on that circuit is more than 10 amp, it would need to be increased in awg. similar for the 20amp circuits (if load grater than 15 amp)

and yes, you can run a single equipment grounding conductor for all the circuits, with branches off in the individual conduit runs. you would need a #12 minimum in the common conduit.

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Old 10-25-2013, 04:19 PM   #27
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similar for the 20amp circuits (if load grater than 15 amp)
So does this mean that in order to satisfy the 20 amp breaker requirement for a bathroom, I would have to use something bigger than #12 wire in the conduit for that circuit?

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yes, you can run a single equipment grounding conductor for all the circuits, with branches off in the individual conduit runs. you would need a #12 minimum in the common conduit.
Great! That's even better than I thought. I was thinking ground would need to be a little bigger.

How can I figure out the conduit size requirement for 5 hot, 5 neutral, and 1 ground, all 12 gage?
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:14 PM   #28
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Installing new sub panel in the attic


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So does this mean that in order to satisfy the 20 amp breaker requirement for a bathroom, I would have to use something bigger than #12 wire in the conduit for that circuit?



Great! That's even better than I thought. I was thinking ground would need to be a little bigger.

How can I figure out the conduit size requirement for 5 hot, 5 neutral, and 1 ground, all 12 gage?
for the bathroom circuit, i don't believe you need to increase the conductor size. the load on the 20a receptacle circuit is already included in the general lighting load so there is no 'minimum ampacity' that the circuit needs to meet. it is a good question though, i'm not totally sure on the answer.

for the conduit, minimum would be 3/4" but you may want to bump up to a 1" conduit, just to make the pull easier.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:10 PM   #29
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[QUOTE=itsnotrequired;1258030]assuming 5 circuits (one hot and neutral each) in a single conduit, the conductor allowable ampacity decreases by 50%. for #14 thhn, maximum ampacity would be 10 amp. if the load on that circuit is more than 10 amp, it would need to be increased in awg. similar for the 20amp circuits (if load grater than 15 amp)

and yes, you can run a single equipment grounding conductor for all the circuits, with branches off in the individual conduit runs. you would need a #12 minimum in the common conduit.[/QUOT

10 to 20 current carrying conductors are derated at 50%. Derating is done from the 90 degree centigrade column, leaving 12.5 amps for #14 and 15 amps for #12. Use one less neutral and you could derate at 70%, leaving 17.5 and 21 amps respectively. Using the OP's scenario and MWBC's only 3 neutrals would be needed.

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Old 10-25-2013, 07:21 PM   #30
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Are MWBC's as potentially dangerous for the rank armature (such as yours truly) as what I have read? I believe I understand the issues it can create, and I think I understand how to avoid them. I guess I'm just saying I'm just a little bit leary but as always, knowledge is the cure for that right? So lay some knowledge on me.

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