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Old 01-04-2017, 09:51 PM   #16
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


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Originally Posted by jbfan View Post
Can't help you made a poor decision in picking your electrician.

Thanks for the empathy. But it was the builder who picked the subs (wouldn't ya know?). Nonetheless, I'll be sure to pass on your heartfelt sentiments to my elderly parents because it was they who picked the builder to construct their million dollar home. In retrospect, they should have had an (good) architect -- someone intelligent and professional to make sure that all the trades did their jobs well. Just seems like some of the trades just like to soak the more affluent or do an especially shoddy job in some instances. Good thing I can do their jobs as well as my own, I guess.

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Old 01-04-2017, 10:58 PM   #17
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


There is nothing stupid or dangerous about MWBC.
An electrician told you would be installing a generator would assume a 240 unit. 120 volt units are not designed to be used with transfer switches to connect to 240 volt source. You are using the wrong generator for the application.
The single pole breakers without handle ties are wrong but where was the inspector when the electrical was installed.
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Old 01-04-2017, 11:36 PM   #18
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


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There is nothing stupid or dangerous about MWBC.
An electrician told you would be installing a generator would assume a 240 unit. 120 volt units are not designed to be used with transfer switches to connect to 240 volt source. You are using the wrong generator for the application.
The single pole breakers without handle ties are wrong but where was the inspector when the electrical was installed.
Wow. I'm "using the wrong generator"? Really? Never heard of a 120v load center? Boy what you don't know is a lot. Further, effectively tying circuits together would also prevent transferring one of two circuits to a 240v load center as well (because the two circuit "halves" are inseparable). Don't you get that? I figured that out over a period of a couple of hours the other night (see first three posts) and without years of training. Nothing stupid or dangerous about a shared neutral? No that ain't true. What's true is that you don't understand what is stupid or dangerous about a shared neutral. And yes, the inspector messed up too. But that doesn't excuse the oinker of an electrician now does it? Please stop digging the hole deeper.
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Old 01-05-2017, 12:48 AM   #19
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


Wow,
Two hours on the internet and you are an expert on everything.
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Old 01-05-2017, 12:56 AM   #20
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


This thread is going sideways.....
I don't like those circuits mostly for the inflexibility only, that's it. That and, it's easy for people to do them wrong, like not breaker tying....

I'm starting to wonder if you're missing something in this picture.

MWBC is technically a 240v circuit, with a split neutral. (like a stove, at least around here.) You can't just use 2 random breaker spots, you must to use 2 neighboring slots. When you measure with a multimeter between the L1, and L2, you must have 240V(or so). This situation will never overload the neutral when everything is to code. The breaker tie is to ensure safety if one side trips.

If you split the breakers by an odd spacing, you'll measure 0V between the lines, but 120V to neutral on both. You WILL overload the neutral, and likely set your house on fire.... Obviously it's against every code and rational logic. I think these are the points where you're getting crossed on.

Cheers!

PS. A load center is another name for your electrical panel. (more accurately describes it but less DIY friendly)

Last edited by supers05; 01-05-2017 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 01-05-2017, 04:08 AM   #21
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


Assuming there is only one outlet, for the split phase 14/3 circuit, abandon the red wire (call it a spare) and rewire/replace the recepticle with a unbroken tab or run the black to both hots on the outlet. Marette and tape the red in the new panel.

If this 14/3 goes through multiple boxes, (like old kitchens in canada) you would have to do the same to all recepticles. (ideally strip a really long piece and bridge the two screws). You might also take the time to upgrade to GFCI 15a outlets if this in a wet environment. This would cause the breaker more stress, and also violate code if there aren't 2 separate circuits in a kitchen (in canada anyway).

Last edited by dehv; 01-05-2017 at 04:27 AM. Reason: Additional factors.
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Old 01-05-2017, 04:24 AM   #22
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


Re: Generator

A non inverter genset can usually be modified back and forth from 120/240 and only 120 X2 by changing the way the junction block is wired on the end of the gen head. The oulets on the unit are another issue, but it is usually possible.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:24 AM   #23
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


Quote:
Never heard of a 120v load center?
Not in a modern North American home wired by a competent electrician. They don't even make them. You have to modify a 240 load center to get one.

Quote:
Nothing stupid or dangerous about a shared neutral?
Nothing at all wrong with them when installed and worked on by a competent electrician.
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:02 PM   #24
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: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex u


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Originally Posted by supers05 View Post
While your assertions may(or may not) be correct about the OPs case, I actually found one in my house the other day. While doing some work in the panel, I saw a MWBC, which at the time I assumed was a 240v line, so I shut it off. (been removing most of my 240v loads as electricity is too expensive here, so at this time of year I have no 240v loads.) Of course in this old house, nothing is labeled, and it ended up being an outlet instead. Now I just have to go find a breaker tie for it......

The things i find out about this old house...

Cheers!
How is removing the 240 volt circuits making it cheaper for electric ? The meters measure watt hours which are not voltage dependsnt.
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:06 PM   #25
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Re: : Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex u


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How is removing the 240 volt circuits making it cheaper for electric ? The meters measure watt hours which are not voltage dependsnt.
When NG is a fraction of the price.... Yes, they only require 120v for resi applications.

Cheers!
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:12 PM   #26
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


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Originally Posted by diycc2 View Post
Really? I think not.

First of all, the electrician was told that we would, in the future, be installing a generator. Of course if this "electrician" had an IQ north of 100, he would not have inextricable tied a number of circuits together knowing that there was at least a possibility of the installation of a mini-load center with segregated circuits. Secondly, it is both stupid and dangerous to use a shared neutral -- do you know why? Thirdly, this lazy dimwit used standard breakers just to make sure he put some innocent party at risk (do you know why that's a risk -- hint it relates to turning off one breaker while the other breaker feeds the shared neutral?).

Finally, this brain surgeon made other lazy-azz blunders like attaching the recirculating pump controller box (electronics) to the sheet metal covering of the hot water boiler -- this would not only fry the electronics over time, it also prevented removal of the cover in order to clean the furnace.

Yea, quite a piece of work, this professional electrician. But you keep on defending him so we get a good idea of the quality of your work and your professional standards.
The attitude and lack of knowledge displayed in this post is almost unbelievable.

OP, you are ignoring the code requirement that the generator be sized to the load and other important issues.

Handle ties or a common disconnect means for MWBC's have only been a recent addition to the NEC. Previously they were only required in commercial or if both hots landed on the same yoke.

Have you converted your house to 120 volt service to avoid the deadly MWBC that currently feeds millions of residences in the US?

How does attaching a control box to the boiler fry the electronics over time?
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:35 PM   #27
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


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The attitude and lack of knowledge displayed in this post is almost unbelievable.
True.
But he read about it on the internet. It must be true.
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:42 PM   #28
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Re: Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex Fed "Dual Circu


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True.
But he read about it on the internet. It must be true.
Should have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:31 PM   #29
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Re: : Installation For 120v Generator Feed -- How To Split 3-Wire Romex u


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
How is removing the 240 volt circuits making it cheaper for electric ? The meters measure watt hours which are not voltage dependsnt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by supers05 View Post
When NG is a fraction of the price.... Yes, they only require 120v for resi applications.

Cheers!
Finally got time to respond with more then a breath.
I normally work with 600V 3ph, and everything below, so 240v really doesn't bother me.

If anything, you'd want higher voltage, as voltage drop can be a function of current. (Unless you like running larger gauge wires ...) less voltage drop = less waste. We are talking a few small % but on longer runs it starts to add up.

Were I live, electricity is ridiculously priced. Not counting maintenance, it's plausible to run a cheap NG generator cheaper then buying electricity during peak/mid times. (it's just not practical)

Anyways, every large load that can be switched to NG is being switched. All the while, keeping the electrical infrastructure in place, just in case the markets get turned up side down. (although I am not quite ready to jump on the packaged micro absorption A/C bandwagon.... I have looked at them. Our cooling season is short enough to not warrant the tool investment on different tech to save a penny.)

Cheers!

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