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Old 04-03-2013, 10:14 AM   #16
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


In all reality, it is a very simple task for someone that knows what they're doing. You just have to know how to do it the right way and what to use.

That is, putting aside the work of drilling, fishing wire, digging, and wiring everything up.

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Old 04-03-2013, 10:53 AM   #17
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


If it were me I wouldn't waste time with 30 amps and use a 60 amp sub panel instead. You are going through all of the trouble of trenching and running either the uf cable or the conduit already. The only cost difference is the upsized wire and the 60 amp breaker.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:07 AM   #18
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


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If it were me I wouldn't waste time with 30 amps and use a 60 amp sub panel instead. You are going through all of the trouble of trenching and running either the uf cable or the conduit already. The only cost difference is the upsized wire and the 60 amp breaker.
That's a big difference in wire cost though if you only need 30 amps, especially considering the distance between main panel to sub panel. Wire is not cheap these days. When I ran power for my shed, I used NM from the main panel under the crawlspace due to tight working spaces and a lot of turns. Then converted to THWN in a junction box before going underground outside. Only 50ft of 10/3 NM cable costs about $80 around here. Dang expensive.

A 30amp 240v service will effectively give you 60amps of available power at 120v. 30amp available at 240v.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:07 PM   #19
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


Can I ask 1 more stupid question??? Kinda off topic, but it relates.
In my main panel my breakers are numbered 1,3,5,7,9 down the left side and 2,4,6,8,10 down the right side. Wiring a 240V you need your phases to be 180* from each other, so my question is if 1 is 0* would 3 or 2 be 180*?
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:13 PM   #20
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


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Can I ask 1 more stupid question??? Kinda off topic, but it relates.
In my main panel my breakers are numbered 1,3,5,7,9 down the left side and 2,4,6,8,10 down the right side. Wiring a 240V you need your phases to be 180* from each other, so my question is if 1 is 0* would 3 or 2 be 180*?
Scroll down to block 6/7 on the link where it says "Wires enter main breaker box" and "120Volt and 240Volt breakers"
http://waterheatertimer.org/See-insi...eaker-box.html

The numbering in a panel does not always matter. Some panels have them labeled differently. They are mainly there for labeling reference only.

In residential,
Installing a double pole breaker is 240 (120 each leg)
Single pole breakers are 120

You get 120 by taking 1 leg and the neutral.
You get 240 by taking both legs and sometimes depending on an appliance, the neutral. In a sub panel, neutral is needed.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:19 PM   #21
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


No offense, but with your electrical knowledge, I really hope you're getting this inspected?
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:28 PM   #22
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


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Originally Posted by seansy59 View Post
That's a big difference in wire cost though if you only need 30 amps, especially considering the distance between main panel to sub panel. Wire is not cheap these days. When I ran power for my shed, I used NM from the main panel under the crawlspace due to tight working spaces and a lot of turns. Then converted to THWN in a junction box before going underground outside. Only 50ft of 10/3 NM cable costs about $80 around here. Dang expensive.

A 30amp 240v service will effectively give you 60amps of available power at 120v. 30amp available at 240v.
You plan to live there long? Are you young enough to start a new hobby? Got kids that might start a new hobby? These are rhetorical questions and need no answer. The point is that (and I say this every time a detached sub panel comes up): You will never cry because you have too much power, but you will cry every day if you have too little.

Most parts of a sub panel are the same whether you install thirty amps or sixty, or 80, the exception being wire cost, and maybe a few extra bucks for the up-sized feed breaker. Go to aluminum for the feed wire, and the cost gets much closer for more verses less.

I never in a million years thought I would weld, but man, am I glad I had the power available in my garage to run a large MIG welder! Just something to think about; things change.

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Old 04-03-2013, 02:53 PM   #23
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


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No offense, but with your electrical knowledge, I really hope you're getting this inspected?
LMAO, none taken!! Actually I am pretty confindent with my wiring, I'm just not "book smart", names, terms, why; electrical theory I guess. Anyways, I know the panel is numbered as reference, and I was using them as reference also. So I guess to reword and to get to my question and why I ask: If Leg#1 is phased at 0* and Leg#2 is phased at 180*, in my panel going down through 1,3,5,7 are they all phased the same? If 1 and 3 are both phased at 0*, how would you get a correct 240V out of using both of them? (I'm going to your link now and look forward to a response)
Thanx!!!
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:00 PM   #24
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


In most panels, 1-2 5-6 are the same leg
3-4,7-8 are the same leg.
You get 240 volts from 1-3, or 2-4, or 5-7
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:11 PM   #25
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


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In most panels, 1-2 5-6 are the same leg
3-4,7-8 are the same leg.
You get 240 volts from 1-3, or 2-4, or 5-7
Looking at seansy59's link I see. I didn't know the bus alternated like that. That's why I couldn't grasp how 2 breakers side by side could make a closed 240V circuit!!
Thanks guys
+reps to both of you
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Old 04-04-2013, 04:22 AM   #26
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


Best way to test is put a volt meter between two of the breaker screws and see. My panel is actually very odd in that I can only put a double pole breaker in some locations to get 240 out of it. Some it does not matter. Depends how the bus bar is made. So something to watch for.
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:43 AM   #27
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


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I didn't know the bus alternated like that. That's why I couldn't grasp how 2 breakers side by side could make a closed 240V circuit!!
Guess this is the "why" or theory part???

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Actually I am pretty confindent with my wiring, I'm just not "book smart", names, terms, why; electrical theory I guess.
Kind of go hand in hand. Anyone can twist two wires together and put a wire nut on.

Post a picture of when you get this installed.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:26 AM   #28
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Install a breaker box behind a breaker????


Well like I said, I am confindent in my work. **** comes natural to me. I've been taking things apart and rebuilding and modifying them since I could turn a screwdriver. I haven't even took the front panel off my box yet, just looking and reading for any questions I might come across. If I would have already taken the panel off, I would have never asked the question because I would be able to actual see what is going on. That's all I really needed to do, but it also never hurts to ask questions. You might just get answers to things that you would have never dreamed of asking, just like not running romex thru conduit underground.

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