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-   -   Increase to double gang boxes... (http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/increase-double-gang-boxes-29852/)

jamiedolan 10-13-2008 04:28 AM

Increase to double gang boxes...
 
I stared with replacing my outlets tonight with the new Premium P&S outlets. I am pig tailing the grounds as advised. No problems with install. First one I did was in a shallow box and it still wasn't bad.

Since I ended up going with duplex outlets to replace my triplex outlets, there are going to be a few areas that I am really short on plugs. (since one of my plugs is switched). I am strongly considering putting in a few double gang boxes in several areas.

What is the best way to approach that change? Do I jig saw the whole larger to the double gang size, then try to get the old metal box out of the wall? Then do I try to get a metal new work box back in again, or do I install a plastic old work double gang box to replace the metal box?

Most of the walls I would be working with are sheet rock and plaster top / skim coated for texture. So I don't want to mess up the walls.

Thanks

Jamie

dSilanskas 10-13-2008 05:18 AM

If you want to install a two gang box in place of a single gang and its sheet rock the way I do it is use a key hole saw after you mark out the new size. Cut it out and remove the old wires from the box through the opening. Next pry the old box off if you put a screw driver between the middle of the box and the stud usually it will pop off easy. I think the best box to use would be a plastic two gang old work box. Very simple to use and a lot easier:thumbsup:

rgsgww 10-13-2008 07:01 AM

It depends on the type of cable at the box currently, you cannot put bx,ac or mc cable into plastic boxes though. Otherwise I usually go for plastic whenever I can, its cheap and easy to use. Just stick the box in, tighten the screws, and done. And remember, dont use the push ins!

jamiedolan 10-13-2008 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgsgww (Post 171672)
It depends on the type of cable at the box currently, you cannot put bx,ac or mc cable into plastic boxes though. Otherwise I usually go for plastic whenever I can, its cheap and easy to use. Just stick the box in, tighten the screws, and done. And remember, dont use the push ins!

These would all be 1st and second story boxes, so they would all just be NM romex cable running to the boxes.

I can't believe anyone uses push-in's. I knew plastic old work boxes would be easy, I was having a hard time convincing myself they were old to use instead of metal. Thanks for the reassurance that plastic boxes are ok.

Jamie

Marvin Gardens 10-13-2008 09:30 AM

Make sure you get retrograde boxes. They are real easy to put in. Put the box on the wall and drew where it needs to be cut. Then cut. You will have to do some more cutting to get it in but keep the hole as tight around the box as you can.

Double gangs are great. In my remodels I put in double gangs everywhere. At first my wife hated them and now she insists on them. I put in a single gang and she complained. I had to pull it out and do the double gang.

theatretch85 10-13-2008 06:44 PM

Personally I like using 4" square boxes. You can put on a single gang mud ring during construction if that's all you need, but changing it out to a double gang later is as simple as cutting the Sheetrock a little bigger and changing the mud ring. Had a bedroom that the builder installed a 4" box at the time the house was built, and had only a single gang mud ring on it, with the install of the ceiling fan it was easy to change it to a double gang box!

Winchester 10-13-2008 06:48 PM

Did this myself just this past weekend.

I measured the new double gang, plastic box width and marked to the right of the existing single gang, plastic box with the increased width with a pencil. Used a small level to extend the height of the hole and then used it again to mark the vertical, perpendicular line that was previously marked. Using a utility knife I simply cutout the drywall. With a screwdriver I was able to separate the box from the stud on the left. Then with a flat bar it was separated completely. Twisting the box 90 degrees allowed me to removed the box from the wall and pull out the existing wire.

From here I ran new wire from the basement for my added circuit along with the previously removed wire. Turning the screws to secure the box and the arm rests behind the drywall and makes a secure fit.

Best of luck. :thumbsup:

220/221 10-13-2008 07:05 PM

The degree of difficulty depends on the mounting style of the old box.

Many old 1G boxes are simply nailed on thru the box.. Trace the 2G box, cut out the drywayy, remove the clamps/ground screw/wirenuts, pull the nails an slip the box out.

There are metal boxes that have a bracket running across the stud, behind the drywall/plaster. These require a little more effort with a sawsall and likely some patch work.

I don't use old work boxes on receps unless I have to. I just screw thru the box into the stud. It makes for a more secure installation.

Plastic boxes rock. :thumbup: They don't conduct electricity :jester:

theatretch85 10-13-2008 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 220/221 (Post 171917)
I just screw thru the box into the stud. It makes for a more secure installation.

Plastic boxes rock. :thumbup: They don't conduct electricity :jester:

Doesn't that void the UL listing of the box by screwing it to the stud when its not listed as such? Don't get me wrong, I've done the same thing. Since being a member here I have learned a lot about little bits of the NEC code and what is acceptable verses not acceptable.

220/221 10-13-2008 07:29 PM

I'm not sure how you void a listing by running a screw thru a plastic box. Somebody somewhere will certainly argue the point.


Code is a little vague. It says that it has to be installed so the screws can't contact the terminals.

There is a UL listed "smart box" that comes with screws pre installed so....????

I got red tagged one time about 10 years ago so instead of argueing with the inspector I simply put a dab of caulk over the screw heads. I have done it a thousand times since then (no caulk) with no red tags/reprocussion.

ScottR 10-14-2008 09:07 PM

I know some old work/remodel boxes have drywall tabs or clamps (struggling for the right term here) on the sides, and others have them on the top & bottom.

I'm guessing that if you were using one with the tabs on the sides it would not work so well next to a stud.

On the other hand screwing boxes into the studs like InPhase said has got to be the sturdiest way to go.

InPhase277 10-14-2008 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottR (Post 172354)

On the other hand screwing boxes into the studs like InPhase said has got to be the sturdiest way to go.

Well, just to be fair, it was 220 who said it... but yeah its pretty sturdy. Sometimes, if you're not mindful, the box can be warped when the screw runs in, making it somewhat difficult to get the device to align right.

ScottR 10-14-2008 09:33 PM

Quote:

Well, just to be fair, it was 220 who said it... but yeah its pretty sturdy.
Woops, so it was.. I just read one of your posts before coming here.. so.. I guess I got the voltages wrong? :whistling2: :)

Quote:

Sometimes, if you're not mindful, the box can be warped when the screw runs in, making it somewhat difficult to get the device to align right.
I've done that with the nailed plastic boxes too when not hammering straight..

chris75 10-14-2008 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theatretch85 (Post 171925)
Doesn't that void the UL listing of the box by screwing it to the stud when its not listed as such?



Not only does it void the UL, its a NEC code violation,

Quote:

Originally Posted by 220/221 (Post 171932)
Code is a little vague. It says that it has to be installed so the screws can't contact the terminals.

Not exactly what the code says... :whistling2:

314.23 (1) Nails & Screws
Nails and screws, where uses as a fastening means, shall be attached by using brackets on the outside of the enclosure, or they shall pass through the interior within 1/4 in. of the back of the enclosure.

InPhase277 10-14-2008 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris75 (Post 172386)
Not only does it void the UL, its a NEC code violation,



Not exactly what the code says... :whistling2:

314.23 (1) Nails & Screws
Nails and screws, where uses as a fastening means, shall be attached by using brackets on the outside of the enclosure, or they shall pass through the interior within 1/4 in. of the back of the enclosure.

I'd avoid screwing them to a stud if at all possible. But as far as violations go, to quote 220: "it's like jaywalking". The Carlon old work box does fine near a stud. And even if you have to move it over a little, it isn't so far that the device plate won't cover.


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