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Old 09-30-2008, 09:20 PM   #31
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Besides, the "govt" does NOT write the code books. A code making panel of highly experienced folks do.
And they don't "write" it. They amend, remove or add to what is already in place.
Very true. Code-making panels are from nearly all facets of the trades. On a certain panel for a certain part of the electric code you might have everyone from building officials, ICC, NFPA, UL, IAEI, electricians, educators, electrical manufacturers, electrical engineers, fire protection people, insurance people, etc. The industry is typically very well-represented, even though a lot of people assume that it is a bunch of inspectors in a room dreaming up code. Most code change is driven by people in the industry.

As industry professionals, you can always propose code changes to the code-making body (NFPA, ICC, etc). Proposals are your right, and they'll look at them.

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Old 09-30-2008, 09:32 PM   #32
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


Only issue I have ever had with inspectors is their dislike for the do-it yourselfer. Everyone speaks of people having a bad view of inspectors.....never met an inspector who didn't have a bad opinion of a DIY. I built my own house(not contracted, built) I did the complete wiring job. I work quite a bit with the code at work. (actually mostly with the 500 section) BUT
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Old 09-30-2008, 09:39 PM   #33
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


SORRY, COMPUTER SCREW UP ON LAST MESSAGE.
I was required to do everything to the extreme end of the code, not the minimum required. The favorite line I would get when I was going over my plans with the inspector was, "That would work O.K. but I would rather you do it this way." So to avoid a hassle at the time of inspection, I did everything he said the way he wanted. Passed inspection without a single comment.

My brother built a house 4 years later and it was wired by a pro. I found 11 violations in the job. I called the inspector and told him what I found. He informed me that when the job is done by a pro they know where they can take "liberties" with the code! And I always thought the code was just that, a code!


I have no issues with inspectors, I just wish they did not have issues with experienced do it yourselfers.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:01 PM   #34
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


I like dealing with DIYers quite a lot. Most just want to do it right, and I enjoy helping them out. I try to take a proactive approach with them and walk them through my expectations up front so they don't have any big surprises later in the project. Code is the benchmark, and if they meet it, I'm pleased. I will not ask for more. I've seen some pretty spooky DIY jobs for sure, but many (if not most) DIYers are really trying to do it right. By the time I do a rough-in inspection on a typical DIY basement finish for instance, I've probably been to the site at least 3 times and have spoken on the phone with them as well. When I'm in the process of permitting a job, I like to sit down with them and go through the different parts of the job long before anything starts. I make myself available, present myself as a resource for them if they need me, make the process transparent and predictable, and avoid a lot of conflict and hardship that way.

I'd be more willing to give a DIYer some slack before I'd give a professional contractor any. The contractor is a professional or at least should be, so meeting the code shouldn't be foreign to them.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:15 PM   #35
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Or because the inspector has a God complex and likes to impose his own opinions as code. This is worse!

Yeah, funny how certain jobs attract specific personality types. Lots of cops that way too.

It's usually the kids that were the hall monitors back in high school

No disrespect to you KC. Some of the worse A-holes I've met in my life have been electricians. The electricians are the prima-donnas in the industrial world, and they act like it.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:18 PM   #36
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


I wish thekctermite was in my area.

Electrical, plumbing permits were rough years ago in my area.
When I applied for the permits I felt like I was on the witness stand of a Perry Mason trial! Like they were trying to sweat a code violation out of me!

Keep up the good work!
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:18 PM   #37
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Yeah, funny how certain jobs attract specific personality types. Lots of cops that way too.
Nooooooooo....
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Sometimes I feel like if I answer any more questions it is like someone trying to climb over a fence to jump off a bridge and me giving them a boost.
Answers based on the 2008 & 2011 NEC.
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:33 PM   #38
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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Over 20 wire nuts in a panel, each with at least two circuits' phase conductors under it. The panel cannot be a splice point per code...I'm usually not one to get wound up over it and will allow it here and there as needed, but this was too much. And although not necessarily a code issue, what a disservice to the customer by doing that. Many of the circuits were kitchen and bath 20 amp circuits, grouped together on the same breakers. Think that'll work well? Many, many multiwire branch circuits were out of phase as well. Note the neutrals under the same lugs as the grounds and the doubled neutrals. Did I mention that there's a main disconnect outside? That changes a few things as well (like the neutrals and grounds and the little green screw that was installed in the panel). This panel was a code violation smorgasboard and serves as a good example of how not to wire a panel.
I see I see. Some folks got it, some don't. But, and I hate to drag this one up, but how do you feel about 312.8?
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Old 09-30-2008, 10:42 PM   #39
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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It's usually the kids that were the hall monitors back in high school

No disrespect to you KC. Some of the worse A-holes I've met in my life have been electricians. The electricians are the prima-donnas in the industrial world, and they act like it.
I can't disagree with the hall monitor logic, as much as I'm inclined to defend inspectors as a whole. A team of psychologists could spend months with the underlying confidence problems of a few inspectors that I know. Definately the kind of guys that got beat up a lot in high school.

I just want people to understand that we aren't the enemy, and that a successful working relationship is possible with 95% of the inspectors on the street. Sometimes you may have to bite your tongue and calmly discuss the merits of the code, and maybe even swallow your pride a little and admit a mistake, but if you've got the right kind of working relationship with your inspector, he'll do the same for you when he's wrong. If contractors see me as a partner in getting their job done right, which benefits them, we're on the right page. If DIYers see me as an advocate for them on their projects, we're both on the right page.

Nah, I love dealing with electricians, plumbers, and masons. Those three trades are by far and away the most professional ones I deal with. The primadonnas around here are the trim carpenters and the framers! I still like 'em though...I got my start as a carpenter.
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Old 09-30-2008, 11:17 PM   #40
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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But, and I hate to drag this one up, but how do you feel about 312.8?
InPhase277, good call. I have to say that I've had a 6 month brainfart and basically forgot that section was in there. Time to prop my feet up and bring my NEC handbook home for some evening refresher reading.

Guess I should be snacking on some crow right now. It is an aquired taste.

Honestly, if the electrician had said that at the time it probably would have got me thinking that I probably couldn't get him on the splices. If that were the only thing I made an issue of in that panel I would have been WRONG and would have been overstepping my bounds (and I've be dealing with some guilt right now). Fact is he had 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound sack and ended up re-doing it all anyway, as he needed to. To get everything balanced and the grounds and neutrals wired right he ended up gutting that panel and starting over. The owner of the company saw his man's work and chose to eliminate the exterior disconnect and set a 200 amp main panel with a subpanel next to it because he wasn't fond of the original setup with the grouped phases and pigtails either.

Just goes to show that there's a very thin line between how some people (like me and the owner of that electrical company) think it should be done, and enforcement of the code. Just because someone did a cruddy job with no forethought doesn't always mean it is wrong. Sometimes it is hard not to step over that line and into the realm of opinion, but I try like hell to avoid it.

Back to my crow...
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Old 10-01-2008, 12:18 PM   #41
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I can "double" the wires to each breaker in my breaker panel right?


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I wish thekctermite was in my area.
So do I, I am a perfect example of "...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". I undertook a service upgrade to my project home, installed a 200 amp 40 slot breaker panel and read some DIY books. This home is in a small SW Kansas town (118 population), there are no codes or inspectors in the county.

I have a rather power hungry home entertainment system planned for this home so I installed 30 amp breakers and 10/2 with ground wiring, hoping to be able to have a high load dedicated circuit for that system. THEN, I find out there are no standard duplex outlets that are rated for 30 amps....the only 30 amp 120V outlets use a very different "twist-lock" design. Uh, oh, but ok, I can make up an adaptor chord, right???

Well, the KC termite helped me understand how incredibly wrong I was and how I was taking a chance on having a potential house fire destroy the property .

The point here is that we DIY types do at times believe we know more than we actually do. Had I had an inspector available, or had to pull a permit, ANY form of design assistance prior to the project, I could have saved myself a lot of trouble! I'll gladly deal with a few gentlemanly disagreements with an inspector to avoid sabatoging my own project!

After all, the safety and lives of me and my family depend on my ability, which was obviously not "up to code". Thank God for this forum!

Dugly

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